From: Wim Nusselder (wim.nusselder@antenna.nl)
Date: Wed Jun 25 2003 - 22:33:14 BST
Dear Platt, Rick & Steve,
Like Steve I tend to value agape/compassion higher than amor/romantic love.
It requires more of a conscious choice while amor seems to me more like
being a plaything of one's unconscious drives. You can 'lose yourself' in
both; in a sense it can both be 'selfless love'. You can also 'find
yourself', learn who you really are or want to be in both.
Rick wrote 25 Jun 2003 09:58:41 -0400:
'I can't help but note that in the MoQ, the patterns of different levels are
supposed to be in conflict to a certain
extent.'
I always find it confused that in 'Lila' different levels are BOTH presented
as discrete AND as conflicting.
Pirsig seems to make a start ending that confusion in 'Lila's Child' with
annotation 52 (published version):
'I think the conflicts mentioned here are intellectual conflicts in which
one side clings to an intellectual justification of existing social patterns
and the other side intellectually opposes the existing social patterns.'
I'd say that patterns of value of different levels cannot conflict, because
they are discrete. Only patterns of value belonging to the same level can.
Intellectual patterns of value however consist of symbols that stand for
patterns of experience of all levels. So intellectual patterns of value that
stand for intellectual patterns of value can conflict with intellectual
patterns of value that stand for social patterns of value (which in their
turn can conflict with intellectual patterns of value that stand for
biological patterns of value etc.). It is not the levels themselves (or the
patterns of value of different levels) that conflict with each other, but
their reflections on the intellectual level.
Platt wrote 26 Jun 2003 07:59:20 -0400:
'It bothers me, however, that you categorize persons as mere social
patterns, the realm where the Giant rules. We know what the Giant does to
persons; he has them for lunch. Better to think of persons as individuals
possessing intellect that can improve life by responding to DQ. That way
persons are less likely to end up as fodder for the Giant's ugly ambitions.
It was the guarantee of individual rights as protection against the appetite
of the Giant that made the USA unique and helped draw powerful intellects
from all over the world to its shores, yearning to be free.'
People participate in both social and intellectual patterns of value. 'The
Giant', or a cluster of social patterns of values, not only 'devours people'
in the sense of making them replaceable elements in a status hierarchy. It
is also used by people to give their life Meaning by striving to rise in
that status hierarchy and by identifying with the Giant and its
contributions to humanity. Clusters of intellectual patterns of values, like
science, can also 'devour people' in the sense of making them replaceable
propagators of sets of ideas.
I hope you're aware that the USA can also be experienced as a Giant?
With friendly greetings,
Wim
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