From: Wim Nusselder (wim.nusselder@antenna.nl)
Date: Fri Jun 27 2003 - 10:28:54 BST
Dear Platt,
Just a short reply, also to tell that I go on holiday for 3 weeks in an
hours time.
'As for clusters of intellectual patterns devouring people, that sounds like
meme theory, in which case you and I have become unwitting victims and
replaceable propagators of Pirsig's ideas, a theory I flatly reject.'
Intellectual patterns of value 'devouring' people is not exactly my choice
of words (just borrowed from Pirsig's treatment of 'the Giant'/social
patterns of values). I usually write about people participating in
intellectual (and other) patterns of value. They are not 'unwitting
victims'. They have a (DQ inspired) choice, but from the perspective of the
patterns of value, yes, they are replaceable.
I find meme theory very interesting (although I know very little about it),
except that it seems to skip the social level or lump it in with the
intellectual level.
WHY do you flatly reject it?
With friendly greetings,
Wim
----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
Van: "Platt Holden" <pholden@sc.rr.com>
Aan: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Verzonden: vrijdag 27 juni 2003 22:12
Onderwerp: Re: MD The Transformation of Love
> Dear Wim,
>
> > Platt wrote 26 Jun 2003 07:59:20 -0400:
> > 'It bothers me, however, that you categorize persons as mere social
> > patterns, the realm where the Giant rules. We know what the Giant does
to
> > persons; he has them for lunch. Better to think of persons as
individuals
> > possessing intellect that can improve life by responding to DQ. That way
> > persons are less likely to end up as fodder for the Giant's ugly
ambitions.
> > It was the guarantee of individual rights as protection against the
> > appetite of the Giant that made the USA unique and helped draw powerful
> > intellects from all over the world to its shores, yearning to be free.'
>
> Wim:
> > People participate in both social and intellectual patterns of value.
'The
> > Giant', or a cluster of social patterns of values, not only 'devours
> > people' in the sense of making them replaceable elements in a status
> > hierarchy. It is also used by people to give their life Meaning by
striving
> > to rise in that status hierarchy and by identifying with the Giant and
its
> > contributions to humanity. Clusters of intellectual patterns of values,
> > like science, can also 'devour people' in the sense of making them
> > replaceable propagators of sets of ideas. I hope you're aware that the
USA
> > can also be experienced as a Giant?
>
> Yes, the USA can be experienced as a Giant as can any city or country on
> earth. Also, unfortunately, there are many people who identify with the
> Giant as their primary means of defining themselves rather than as
> individual, free thinkers and responders to DQ.
>
> As for the Giant's "contributions to humanity," he cuts both ways, raising
> up millions by providing myriads of opportunities and slaughtering
> millions in his quest for power. It's the down side, often disguised as
> being for the "public good," that we need to watch out for. Communism was
> sold to the Russians as helping them.
>
> As for clusters of intellectual patterns devouring people, that sounds
> like meme theory, in which case you and I have become unwitting victims
> and replaceable propagators of Pirsig's ideas, a theory I flatly reject.
>
> Having said all that, I would be foolish not to acknowledge the influence
> of the Giant and ideas originated by others on my individuality. Hopefully
> I'm not a complete clone of my culture . . . or my MD collaborators. :-)
>
> Platt
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