From: Joe (jhmau@sbcglobal.net)
Date: Mon Jun 30 2003 - 04:34:06 BST
On 26 June 2003 8:22 PM Scott writes:
Scott:
So, yes, the intellectual level is more than the S/O divide, but also yes,
it depended on the S/O divide to exist as a new level. Now you mentioned
that I didn't press this enough with Squonk, but as I said to him, I'm not
all that concerned with preserving the word "intellectual" in naming this
level. Whatever the name, I would say the fourth level begins with the human
mind learning to separate reality into subjects and objects. Until then, all
thinking, all symbol manipulation, was determined by social and biological
concerns, and was not seen as an independent activity of the individual.
Hi Scott, Bo and All,
joe: "So, yes, the intellectial level is more than the S/O divide, but also
yes, it depended on the S/O divide to exist as a new level."
I agree with the first "yes". The second "yes" is more problematical and I
do not agree with it.
IMO Pirsig describes the four orders as though they are contained within
boundaries. If I ascribe social activity to the organic order, I no longer
have value but error and violence. The executioner is not tried for murder.
How do I know the different orders? I take Pirsig's word for them?
IMO Pirsig points at inspiration and an instinctive sensing of reality as a
way to know the orders. I have described the elements I see as necessary
for knowledge to come from an instinctive sensing of reality. Emanation
from an object to instinctive brains and awareness generated by my DNA like
a planet generates a gravitational field seem to be necessary elements. The
activity of an instinctive sensing of reality creates patterns. The
indefinable dq is known in the creation of words. Communication from
intellect is certain. I know what I am doing. The purpose is contained in
the pattern.
The ability to manipulate patterns in my awareness depends on the S/O
divide. Awareness generated by my DNA is different from instinctive brains
for experience. In awareness I can manipulate patterns, but unless I appeal
to my instinctive brains or instinctive memory of my experience, the aspects
of existence, purpose, and quality may come from my awareness. The pattern
I am describing may be a hybrid. I write my novel and the tension is there
between dq and sq, but the dq may be from a different pattern. The tension
is unique to the story.
The Greeks focused on this creative activity in my awareness. Later other
authors and poets like Pirsig pointed to undefined quality heralding the
instinctive nature of our knowledge. This distinction between intellect and
awareness becomes clearer in this emphasis on undefined quality.
Communication from my awareness is less certain than communication from my
experience. If the other trusts me, he accepts what I am telling him, even
though I may not have experienced it. My experience or lack of becomes
evident in the context. Communication from awareness is a very useful tool
when I am trying to work through a problem. I cannot experience everything
myself. I can trust another's experience.
IMO in this way the S/O divide created a new form of communication between
the intellectual and the other orders. Lack of value may be sensed, error
may be there but violence is avoided and I live to fight again. The S/O
divide points the finger to communication between my awareness and my
experience. I create my soul, and I am not alone.
Since developing instinctive brains was not high on my educational goals,
many times I do not know what I am talking about. There is a division
between experience and awareness. I lie unknowingly. The moral order, the
purpose, the value are not native to the pattern I am communicating from my
awareness. I sell myself something I do not want. Maybe a psychotherapist
can sort it out.
Joe
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