From: Platt Holden (pholden@sc.rr.com)
Date: Tue Jul 01 2003 - 20:11:51 BST
Hi Johnny,
P:
> >The Giant, a social pattern, can't respond to DQ. Pirsig says only an
> >individual human being can do that.
J:
> But the giant shapes humans to respond to DQ on its behalf. There's >
really
> no such a thing as an "individual human", we are not islands.
In one sense, yes. But if there is no such thing as an individual human,
I'm sure you'll be glad to pay my income taxes for me.
>You agree
> that social and intellectual patterns exist and evolve, right? How do you
> explain their evolution and continued existence if they aren't responding
> to DQ?
Individual human beings respond to DQ. If enough individuals agree with
the response, it may become institutionalized as a social pattern, like in
the story of the brujo and the Zuni tribe in Lila.
> Consumer-safety, or
> consumer-awareness, things like the FDA and FCC, I wholeheartedly approve
> of. But you must see then how giving more freedom to the marketplace would
> serve the marketplace, at a human cost.
Sorry, I don't see. There's been a huge human cost as the result of FDA
delays in allowing life saving drugs from coming to market.
> You think capitalism is opposed to liberal, left-wing politics? That's
> what makes it such a joke, Republicans know that they get rich when Murphy
> Brown destroys the familiy.
Sounds like you've fallen for Hillary's vast right-wing conspiracy. Do you
seriously believe capitalists promote socialism for some sort of rebound
effect?
> Our laws, moral strength, and convictions protect us from the giant's
> appetite. We have to value family over economic growth.
I don't see that families values and economic growth as incompatible. In
fact, quite the opposite.
> So now the Giant is the government? I don't think so. You still haven't
> explained why it was loudest in NYC, not Washington DC, not Tehran.
The Giant gets its power from government as well as from fame and fortune
(taxes). Ever hear of eminent domain? As for "loudest," check Chap. 17 of
Lila. The symbol for NYC is the ticker tape--capitalism, free markets.
P:
> >I agree that a plate of food to a hungry person is better than a menu. But
> >how do you tell a bogus idea from a good idea? I mean, your ideas are good
> >are they not?
J:
> Right that's how you tell them apart, mine are good.
If you say so.
P:
> >I also wonder what an inorganic or a biological idea is
> >like. Can you give some examples?
J:
> A hydrogen atom making the quality decision to bond with another, an amoeba
> having the idea to move away from a drop of acid.
Now we have someone saying intellect is also part of the inorganic and
biological levels. It will be interesting to see who, if anyone, besides you,
thinks that's a good idea. I think it's bogus.
> Yeah, I guess me deciding to be a computer user was a social idea as much
> as an intellectual one.
I'm glad you decided for yourself instead of just following the crowd.
P:
> >In the MoQ, all ideas (collections and manipulations of
> >symbols) are at the intellectual level
J:
> I know that's what we mean by an idea generally, and those are the ideas
> that I said were usually bogus (though there are people who believe the MoQ
> implies that all ideas, including the bogus, were of a higher level than
> social and biological patterns and therefore are good for that reason
> alone.)
I guess you consider this idea from Pirsig bogus:
"Just as it is more moral for a doctor to kill a germ than a patient, so
it is more moral for an idea to kill a society than it is for a society to
kill an idea."
Platt
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