From: johnny moral (johnnymoral@hotmail.com)
Date: Mon Jun 30 2003 - 19:09:16 BST
Hi Platt,
> > Why do you assume that DQ and the Giant are opposed to each other? A
> > cohesive force is another name for a static moral pattern, the Giant is
>an
> > intellectual level pattern (not merely the conception of it is
> > intellectual, but it itself is born on top the lower levels). The giant
> > respons to DQ in however way that strengthens and reinforces it as a
> > pattern. Yes, the Giant loves free market forces and loves the
>biological
> > energy of human bodies.
>
>The Giant, a social pattern, can't respond to DQ. Pirsig says only an
>individual human being can do that.
But the giant shapes humans to respond to DQ on its behalf. There's really
no such a thing as an "individual human", we are not islands You agree that
social and intellectual patterns exist and evolve, right? How do you
explain their evolution and continued existence if they aren't responding to
DQ?
> > Yeah, consumerism is what I'm talking about, sure. How is it
> > anti-capitalist?
>
>Consumerism is the societal effort to protect consumers by putting legal,
>moral, and economic pressure on business.
Oh, that's not what I was talking about. Consumer-safety, or
consumer-awareness, things like the FDA and FCC, I wholeheartedly approve
of. But you must see then how giving more freedom to the marketplace would
serve the marketplace, at a human cost.
> > But I don't want the Giant to turn my children into
> > manufactured eudaimonic cogs, either. I'm just saying that media is
> > liberal (and immoral) in general, because only the anomolies and
> > transgressions get written about.
>
>In the US, the media is a capitalist institution, except for national
>public radio and TV which are ultra left-wing.
You think capitalism is opposed to liberal, left-wing politics? That's what
makes it such a joke, Republicans know that they get rich when Murphy Brown
destroys the familiy.
> > >The Giant's power is that of totalitarianism, "devouring human bodies."
>
> > Not so literally, though, right? It devours by marketing, by turning me
> > into computer user and consumer. You still haven't explained why in NYC
> > it's so loud. THere's no totalitarianism there, is there?
>
>It devours human energy to maintain the structure that holds a society
>together. If you want to live in society, you have no choice but to be
>used by the Giant to suit its purposes. Or, you can drop out and live by
>yourself in shack in the woods like the Unabomber who also railed against
>technology and consumerism (not that you would take such drastic
>measures).
Our laws, moral strength, and convictions protect us from the giant's
appetite. We have to value family over economic growth.
>Yes. But by protecting the individual from the Giant through laws
>guaranteeing individual rights and freedoms, responses to DQ are
>encouraged. Thus in the the US, the Giant flourishes by default, but it's
>totalitarian tendencies are always present, ready at any time to take over
>by restricting liberty in the name of "the public good."
So now the Giant is the government? I don't think so. You still haven't
explained why it was loudest in NYC, not Washington DC, not Tehran.
> > No, I think most intellectual ideas are bogus, and every idea is a step
>or
> > two away from direct experience of truth, of knowing. (An inorganic
>idea
> > is one step away from knowing of truth, a biological idea is two steps
> > away, a social idea at least three, and an intellectual idea at least
>four)
>
>I agree that a plate of food to a hungry person is better than a menu. But
>how do you tell a bogus idea from a good idea? I mean, your ideas are good
>are they not?
Right that's how you tell them apart, mine are good.
>I also wonder what an inorganic or a biological idea is
>like. Can you give some examples?
A hydrogen atom making the quality decision to bond with another, an amoeba
having the idea to move away from a drop of acid.
>I think I know what you mean by a social
>idea, like your idea that the Giant turned you into a computer user and
>consumer. Right?
Yeah, I guess me deciding to be a computer user was a social idea as much as
an intellectual one.
>In the MoQ, all ideas (collections and manipulations of
>symbols) are at the intellectual level
I know that's what we mean by an idea generally, and those are the ideas
that I said were usually bogus (though there are people who believe the MoQ
implies that all ideas, including the bogus, were of a higher level than
social and biological patterns and therefore are good for that reason
alone.)
Johnny
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