From: skutvik@online.no
Date: Mon Jul 07 2003 - 07:17:44 BST
On 4 Jul 2003 at 12:52, SQUONKSTAIL@aol.com wrote:
..... in a reply to what we had written before. The below quote from
LILA started it.
Page 26, Bantam Press:
"Phaedrus remembered now that it had bothered him a little that in
the Odyssey, Homer seemed at times to be equating quality with
celebrity . Perhaps in Homer's time, when evolution had not yet
transcended the social level into the intellectual, the two were
the same.
BO had said:
I need not write in bold or capital letters for such a great
linguist as yourself to understand? Homer was Greek and experts
believe him to have lived a thousand years BC and Pirsig says that
evolution had NOT YET ...etc Celebrity - a social value - was
regarded as the highest good. Another few centuries and the
transition took place.
SQUONK had replied
If we substitute 'rose above' for 'transcended' there is no
problem. My dictionary defines transcend as 'rise above' or
'superior to.' At a point where they are the same, no level is above
or superior to the other. This does not conflict with anything i
have said. I am shocked to observe how euphoric you have become.
You are a spooky man.
BO had said:
No problem? You are on very thin ice here. The later value is always
above/superior to the former. And why suddenly substitute anything,
you who otherwise are such a "fundamentalist"? And does "rose
above"
change anything?
SQUONK had replied:
I do not believe there is a problem. Never have.
No problem??? You sound like "Comical Ali" :-)
BO had said:
Still, haven't you misread the passage? Pirsig says that celebrity and
quality were identical, not society and intellect, but anyway, if you
mean that intellect has its root in the social level and served its
parent before it "...went off on a purpose of its own". Right, but it
is "its own purpose" which is intellect's value.
SQUONK had replied:
Quality and celebrity cannot be equal. Quality and Intellect
cannot be equal. Celebrity and intellect can be equal. Your
metaphysics leads to the possibility of a World government asserting
the moral superiority of Western intellect over Asian intellect. That
is racist doctrine not present in the works of Mr. Pirsig. If i am a
fundamentalist for agreeing with Mr. Pirsig, then i shall have to be
happy with being called a fundamentalist.
BO says now:
Pirsig says that quality and celebrity WAS equal in the age when
Society was "the leading edge" of existence.(he only mentions
"celebrity", there were other). In the more remote past when Biology
was top notch IT was reality itself. Right now Intellect is at the front
and its value is perceived as Reality (regardless of how we define its
value). This you deny!? With followers like your Pirsig doesn't really
need opponents.
BO had said:
Another thing: Pirsig says something about the uselessness of going
beyond dictionary definitions. OK the definition of intellect in my
dictionary is: "Power of the mind to reason (contrasted to feeling and
instinct) ..." Somewhere you stated that the S/O definition merely
covers reason, but that IS the dictionary definition! It also fits
nicely with the "intellect vs society" struggle. " by ....contrasted
to feeling and instinct", but let that rest.
SQUONK had replied:
> sq: If i have stated S/O definition merely covers reason, please
> provide the quote?
BO says now:
OK, you did not express it that way. From 27June (to Scott R.)
> The significance of Greece in ZAMM is the emergence of reason. That does not even require Subjects and Objects, as you
> point out with your example of mathematics. These relationships (3-4-5, etc.) were originally incorporated into
> religious practice, but later seen as immutable like the Gods.
"The significance of Greece in ZAMM is the emergence of reason." ...
you correctly say, but this is also described as the emergence of
SOM. Please explain, and no "Comical Ali" antics this time.
You repeatedly paint yourself into corners and then try to escape by
some smokescreen ..now it is racism ..but you are not to be let off
your own hook that easily.
Bo
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