From: SQUONKSTAIL@aol.com
Date: Sun Jul 13 2003 - 12:24:58 BST
Everyone!
Earlier I have suggested that Squonk's rage was due to his sensing
that the S/O interpretation somehow violates DQ (as he sees it) but he
rejects this explanation. It's now his aesthetical sense that is hurt, yet,
it was these words of his that released my new approach.
> ..........................Skutvik turns this around - his doctrine
> asserts that subjects and objects are required for intellect.
I was reflecting on this twisting my argument out of shape. It is of
course the opposite way: Intellectual value is required for subjects and
objects.
sq: Intellect has been around for tens of thousands of years. Intellect is an
aesthetic sense - a relationship to DQ. Subjects and objects are an artistic
creation of the intellect.
I came to think about ZMM when young Phaedrus agonized
over the fundamentals of existence. At that point he had not
conceived of the MOQ - not even reached the Quality insight and was
thus totally immersed in SOM. In retrospect, however, we see that he
was struggling with the reality which was to become the intellectual
level. Now, remember the first night on the trip when he told Chris that
he once knew a character who was out to give REASON a good
trashing? In other words Phaedrus' first enemy was reason which was
later to turn into SOM, then - even later - did he arrive at the insight
that ...."Quality (pre-intellectual) creates subjects and objects".
sq: Rational thought is derived from symbolic manipulation of symbols. Its a
particular method, not intellect itself. Being a method it is art. You don't
need subjects and objects to do maths or geometry and Scott asserts this, as
does Mr, Pirsig. You're not doing very well are you? Maybe its time for that
essay of yours.
Much later came the final MOQ in which pre-inorganic Quality creates
inorganic values, pre-biological .....etc upwards, ending with pre-
intellectual Quality creating subjects and objects ...i.e: the S/O reality.
sq: Pre-intellectual Quality is an aesthetic sense. It can artistically
create subjects and objects and all manner of conceptualisations. Its all
intellect. As i said, intellect is required in order to invent subjects and objects.
PS
Upon returning I see that Rick somehow anticipates the ZMM point by
referring to the Pirsig letter to Anthony. But Rick sees the snag and
tries to solve it by suggesting an extra intellect. He says: "This
pre/post-intellectual divide sits prior to all of the levels". Yes and yes
again, but that which is not static is dynamic, so what forced young
Phaedrus to the quality insight was DQ itself!!! ....or his logic, or his
intelligence both of which are terms that can be made into
metaphysics similar to the MOQ.
sq: The Quality insight as you call it was given to Phaedrus by a gate
keeper. It was already there and it was given to him out of the blue. His
rationality was destroyed by the gift. This completely knocks your daft notions on the
head doesn't it Skutvik?
But Quality is best, let there be no doubt about that.
> Rick:
> Quality is the "pre-intellectual" reality. All four levels exist
> "post-intellectually". But note that in this sense, "intellectual" is NOT
> the same as the level of the MoQ called "intellectual" (which, to Pirsig,
> is a further subdivision of the category called 'subjects'). This
> pre/post-intellectual divide sits prior to all of the levels
Don't you all see what a mess we create of the MOQ if we retain the
least vestige of SOM by making all levels "intellectual" - in the "in the
mind" sense? I am of course wildly opposed to Jonathan (will answer
him later) but grateful for him making it clear where we end starting on
that path. I wonder for instance why Platt is shocked by Jonathan's
assertion, it's a logical conclusion after all. The original MOQ rid
existence of SOM's paradoxes and now so many are happy to
introduce them into the MOQ. Why? The Quality Idea is an enormous
leap forward, but if it's not made completely it becomes a travesty.
sq: I can see you have made a complete horlicks out the MoQ for the last ten
years. Your bid for immortality may be helped along its way by giving us all
an essay?
PPS:
Scott is demolishing Squonkstail and I'll just damage his effort by
commenting, also, DMB's rock solid defences of the Social reality is at
least a common cause, I don't dare to ask for his commitment to the
S/O intellect, but the new quotes and comments he has presented
points in that direction!
Sincerely
Bo
sq: I think you will find, if you read Scott carefully, that he says you dont
need subjects and objects to do maths.
squonk
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