From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Mon Jul 14 2003 - 03:02:23 BST
Scott said;
Barfield is quite specific about the time, in that part of his argument is
that one can see this sort of thinking in the pre-Socratics, but that it is
missing in Homer and Hesiod.
dmb says:
Wow. Excellent! That's practically the same moment in time.
Scott said:
One should also keep in mind that though the S/O divide had its start at
that time, it took 2000 years before it became so entrenched that one could
have SOM. Barfield carries the story forward, to show that for medieval
philosophers, knowledge was considered to be possible due to
"participation", meaning the subject and the object still had some
connection. Only with the complete divide could the scientific revolution
happen, and Descartes. The interesting implication, of course, is that it
shows that the S/O divide is temporary, a stage, not an absolute.
dmb says:
That pretty well parallels Pirsig's assertion that intellect was born in
ancient Greece and became dominant in modern times. (As a student of
intellectual history, we looked closely at this period. It seems that the
scientific revolution WAS quite decisive. The mechanical model won and that
ended up exaggerating the materialist tendencies of SOM, but there were
organic and even magical models that might have won the day too.) In any
case, I think the implication is quite correct. Modern alienation and the
divided self is only a temporary growth pain and is part of the evolutionary
process.
Scott said:
I would put it more strongly. It is not that they "just hadn't yet been
invented", but that they COULDN'T be invented. It's not an increase in
concepts that is involved, but a change in consciousness, namely from a
state of connection (original participation) to a state of disconnection. It
is not that people got smarter, but that they evolved, and henceforth lived
(and live) on two levels rather than one (or four rather than three).
dmb says:
Right. Well said too. I'd only point out what you've already implied here;
that the conflicts between levels go on WITHIN each of us, not just in
history or the culture... Not least of all because thou art that.
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