Re: MD The Intellectual Level

From: Jonathan B. Marder (jonathan.marder@newmail.net)
Date: Mon Jul 14 2003 - 21:08:19 BST

  • Next message: Ian Glendinning: "RE: MD Biographical Detail"

    Hi Rick, Platt and all,

    RICK
    > > Quality is the "pre-intellectual" reality.

    Nice one Rick - and one worth remembering

    > > All four levels exist
    > > "post-intellectually". But note that in this sense, "intellectual" is
    NOT
    > > the same as the level of the MoQ called "intellectual" (which, to
    Pirsig,
    > > is a further subdivision of the category called 'subjects'). This
    > > pre/post-intellectual divide sits prior to all of the levels.

    This is a lot less convuluted if you leave out the Intellectual LEVEL.
    That the Inorg, Biological and Social levels represent post-intellectual
    reality is an inocuous truism.
    Throwing in Intellect introduces the problem of recursion that keeps
    cropping up in these discussions.

    Platt to Jonathan
    > > I'm shocked, shocked. Are you saying atoms and cockroaches do not exist
    > > without our thinking and feeling about them? That there is no reality
    > > independent of human observers?

    Jonathan replies:
    It means that atoms and cockroaches don't exist as discrete entities IN THE
    WAY WE NORMALY THINK OF THEM.
    They're part of the fabric of undivided preintellectual reality.

    > I was asking Jonathan if he really believes Pirsig's intellectual
    > patterns. After all, they do seem to go against the basic scientific
    > presumption of an independent reality (where no intellectual patterns need
    > apply) that science can study from an "objective" stance without
    > disturbing what's "out there."

    Platt, what you here call "basic scientific presumption" is what Pirsig
    calls logical positivism. It is a scientific world view that was thrown into
    disarray by quantum theory. Consequently, what we call scientific
    objectivity is not an expression of truth in a metaphysical sense but merely
    a pragmatic requirement for reproducibility (see my "Zen and the Art of
    Science" essay on the MoQ website).

    Jonathan.

    MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
    Mail Archives:
    Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
    Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
    MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net

    To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
    http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html

    This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Mon Jul 14 2003 - 21:16:12 BST