From: johnny moral (johnnymoral@hotmail.com)
Date: Thu Jul 17 2003 - 19:55:54 BST
Hi Rick,
What about 1)?
>Hey Johnny,
>
>J
> > 2. Instead of saying that all the patterns exist as intellectual
>patterns
>of
> > different levels, isn't it better to use the word consciousness or
>awareness
> > rather than intellect, thus avoiding having to use the confusing phrase
> > "intuitive intellect" to distinguish consciousness from enduring ideas,
>and
> > saving the term intellect to use for thoughts about society, thoughts
>only
> > possible after the establishment of the third level?
>
>R
>Agreed. Unless one concludes that "the intellectual level" is the same as
>the "intellectual" described in the 'pre/post intellectual' split (as Jon
>Marder does), or that "intellectual" is an inappropriate name for the 4th
>level entirely which is better called something else (like Sam's Eudemonia)
>than Pirsig's choice of terms creates a confusing equivocation over the
>term
>"intellectual". Choosing a replacement for either of these terms is a
>tricky business (especially with this group). As to your suggestions of
>consciousness and awareness, I don't like 'awareness' because it would
>reduce "pre/post-intellectual awareness" to simply "pre/post awareness" and
>that seems to convey the wrong message to me. "Pre-awareness" sounds like
>something you aren't even yet aware of (or some kind of psychic phenomenon)
>and I don't think that's quite right. It's not that you're "unaware" of
>what's on the "pre" side of the split, it's that you have yet to 'carve it
>up' in your mind.
Fair enough. I like "consciousness" better too.
>"Consciousness" might be a better term (ie.
>pre/post-conscious awareness), and seems to fit with Pirsig's idea of
>dreams
>as a widow on DQ (which alludes to when he discuss his 'Giant' dreams).
>But
>I would suggest replacing "pre/post-intellectual" with the term
>"pre/post-interpretational". I suggest that term based on the first
>paragraph of LILA, chapter 8, "...But we see subjects and objects as
>reality
>for the same reason we see the world right-side up although the lenses of
>our eyes actually present it to our brains upside down. We get so used to
>certain patterns of interpretation we forget the patterns are there."
I like consciousness, it gets at the magical 'thing' that is there in which
the subjects and objects and other patterns live. And we all sort of know
what pre-consciousness means already.
> Now,
>instead of saying that there are 'intellectual patterns at different
>levels'
>we can say there are 'interpretive patterns at different levels'. Instead
>of saying that Quality is the 'pre-intellectual' cutting edge of reality,
>we
>can say it is the 'pre-interpretive cutting edge'. Instead of speaking of
>"pre-intellectual awareness" we can speak of "pre-interpretive awareness".
>What do you think?
It does make sense, yes, in terms of what is gong on pre and post whatever.
But what did the interpreting? I think the way the whole undifferentiated
quality is carved up and interpreted is dictated by quality itself, it
contains moral patterns that cause consciousnesses to interpret or carve it
up the only way they can.
>take care
>rick
take care
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