From: johnny moral (johnnymoral@hotmail.com)
Date: Thu Jul 17 2003 - 19:46:01 BST
HI Mati,
I appreciate the crack at it, thanks. comments below.
>From: "Mati Palm-Leis" <mpalm@merr.com>
>Johnny and all you folks,
>
>I will take a crack at it, but remember I am a rooky at this stuff.
>
>Johnny: 1. Doesn't the MoQ say that the 4th level patterns exist on top
>of 3rd levelpatterns the way a novel sits on top of a computer? The
>intellectual level doesn't sit on top of 2nd level patterns (people).
>They don't come out of individuals, they come out of society and are
>about society. They help a society find food, not an individual find
>food. An individual uses biological patterns of intellegence and
>repeats social patterns to find food. Is this wrong? Please address
>the novel/computer metaphor as it relates to the 3rd and 4th levels. I
>think it clarifies the difference between thinking in a biological sense
>and thinking in an intellectual sense.
>
>2. Instead of saying that all the patterns exist as intellectual
>patterns of
>different levels, isn't it better to use the word consciousness or
>awareness
>rather than intellect, thus avoiding having to use the confusing phrase
>"intuitive intellect" to distinguish consciousness from enduring ideas,
>and
>saving the term intellect to use for thoughts about society, thoughts
>only
>possible after the establishment of the third level?
>
>
>Mati: I have following the discussion on "Intellectual Level" with
>interest. For myself I have come to believe that the "Intellectual
>Level" is one's capacity to reason and rationalize the realities they
>experience.
I'm suggesting that it depends on what is being reasoned or rationalized. I
don't think reasoning that if I contnue to stand here, that lion over there
will eat me, is an intellectual level thought. I think it is a rational
thought to run away, but again, not an intellectual level thought.
>As far as a novel is concerned it is a work of reason and
>rationalizations, whether it covers inorganic, biological, social or
>rationalizations themselves.
True, but I was referring to Pirsig's metaphor somewhere in Lila about how
the social level exists on top of the biological level the way a novel is
contained in a computer's memory. I should have been more explicit about
what I was referring to. The concept is that the computer has no
understanding of the patterns that are the novel in its memory - the
biological level has no understanding of the patterns of the social level.
Also part of this metaphopr is that there can be no novel without the
computer, thre can be no social level without a biological level, no
intellectual level without a social level, etc.
>This is perhaps why the Nazis loved their
>book burnings, the possible intellectual (reason/rationalization)
>threaten the social reality the Nazi tried to promote. This brings me
>to my rub as "Thinking" as intellect. We do, I believe think in other
>patterns without necessarily reasoning. IE. I go out to dinner and I
>see an attractive woman, my biological thinking and my interest is
>perked (Biological Thinking). I quickly suppress my interest to not
>offend my wife. (Social Thinking). After all this thinking I am hungry
>and order from the menu (Back to Biological Thinking). I reflect and
>reason/rationalize on this all and try to understand this entire
>experience and it's meaning, and perhaps write a novel(Intellectual
>Level).
Exactly, but do you see what you've described as the only intellectual
thought here? It is to perhaps write a novel: ie, to effect society. even
if you don't actually write it, if you are thinking in those terms, that
this could be a novel, then you are thinking about these ideas as they
relate to and effect society.
> I reflect on Pirsig's quote: "One answer is to fudge both mind
>and matter and the whole question that goes with them into another
>platypus called "Man." "Man" has a body (and therefore is not himself a
>body) and he also has a mind (and therefore not himself a mind). But if
>one asks what is this "Man" (which is not of body or mind) one doesn't
>come up with anything. There isn't any "man" independent of the
>patterns. Man is the patterns.
>(Lila, pg. 177-178)
That's a good point to remember, thanks. It does seem like people get
bogged down in a chicken and egg thing about the body-brain and the
mind-consciousness, worrying about paradoxes of which came first, when they
are both just patterns in the morality that came first.
> I see MOQ delineating these patterns to explain and for that
>matter reason or rationalize, the wide array of reality patterns we
>experience.
> As far as using "consciousness or awareness rather than
>intellect" I am concerned that "consciousness" does not have the
>capacity to support our ability to reason values or quality.
I see your point. Consciousness is the canvas that morality paints its
patterns on, creating subjects and objects according to the patterns of
morality. Consciousness also is what expects the patterns to continue,
indeed is where the patterns live as patterns before they are actualized
(this is the pre/post conscious split, which refers to the
self-consciousness (subject) and objects created after the pre-consciousness
has expected them morally. The rationalization and reason are really just
patterns themselves, because as I said above, people rationalize and reason
without being aware of doing it, it is a pattern to do so. So you're
right, consciousness doesn't do the rationalization, a pattern does that.
>Take care,
>Mati
take care
Johnny
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