From: khoo hock aun (hockaun@pc.jaring.my)
Date: Mon Jul 28 2003 - 16:00:52 BST
Hello again Bo,
Apologies for this delayed response.
On 21 July you wrote :
>Yet one thing did I understand at that time and when much later reading
LILA I immediately
> recognized something. He (Watts) said that the Eastern tradition has
realized that to make an individual
> a (good) member of society demands a certain "breaking of will" and that
an individual necessarily
> gets hurt in the process . This is the Confucians part while Taoisms role
is to undo the damage
>by giving the individual back its freedom.
Khoo:
The individual is indeed subjugated to society. To paraphase Spock: " the
needs of the many outweigh the needs of one."
But not the "breaking of will" as communist and fascist regimes would have
their respective populations. The individual submits willingly in the
context of their Asian cosmologies to the larger good and the greater
harmony. It would be a misconception to regard that Taoism restores
individuality when it actually teaches that none exists.
Bo:
> This as we see a complete reversal of the he Western tradition where
religion is the guardian of SOCIAL
> morals and there is no "institution" corresponding to Buddhism/Taoism.
Breaking social rules (crime)
> demands a rejection of religious truths and have resulted in the constant
upheavals of Western culture.
> Great revolutions that directed their force on the unholy Nobility/Church
alliance and efforts on
> atheism. Futile of course, human beings are searching for greater contexts
and so the pendulum swings
> back to a belief in a "social" God (good).
Khoo:
At which point did the Western and Eastern traditions diverge ? The Subject
Object Metaphysics from Greece gave rise to the "structured" nature of
Western religion: Christainity, Judaism, and I would include here, Islam as
well which make up the Abrahamic faiths, from Testaments 1, 2 & 3
respectively. Subject object logic has been also thoroughly treated in both
Hindu and Buddhist metaphysics( the Abhidhamma) pre-dating the Greeks but
was never emphasised, all for good reason, including the understanding that
it would not be "salvific" (thanks, Scott) if pursued. The Hindu/Buddhist
cosmology extended into China as well and permeated Asian civilisation to
such an extent that it was not possible for a Indian or Chinese "Plato" or
"Aristotle" to position a structured subject-object metaphysics as the
primary philosophy for the East.
Bo:
> The Metaphysics of Quality bridges this gap and the RT part of LILA
describes how the stability/dynamics tension has been > solved long ago by
the Eastern Tradition and brings the well-known stability to the Far East
cultures. But the MOQ even
> goes further and re-injects a fruitful "tension" back again by enlarging
the morals spectrum from the social >constraint/intellectual freedom
"see-saw to the new QUALITY that put the two into a new context . OK enough
Khoo:
The Eastern religions are all "unstructured" in that they focus on practice
and experience rather than the authority of the Word. Confucianism is not a
religion but can be equated as a ruler's manual for the imposition and
maintenance of social order; and is structured only in this sense. Islam has
an "unstructured" Sufi tradition that has been suppressed. In being
unstructured and undefined; as compared to the rigidity of subject object
metaphysics, the Eastern tradition has avoided the dogma that has been the
bane of Western society.
Bo:
> What is affirmed by my observations at the start. Those societies COULD
use the MOQ to get the Society/Intellect
> relationship sorted out so that contemplation don't create poverty.
Khoo:
Yet these countries (Myanmar, Tibet, Sri Lanka) have the richest Buddhist
traditions and are at the cutting edge of the wisdom wave. The reverse may
yet be true : that overt and ostentatious materialism would hinder these
countries in their path to spiritual wealth. Do these countries need the MOQ
to make the balance for them ? What would you include as of MOQ value to be
included in the measurement of a country's wealth ?
Bo:
> You should have entered the discussion before Khoo, maybe we could have
made better mileage. Still, I think its basics must be solidified - and the
current definition of its intellect has been THE weak point. Judging by
Pirsig's words he would not be the least dismayed if it is questioned.
Khoo:
Truth be told, I stayed away from discussions then because I was doubtful I
could contribute much to the discussions on the intellectual level. Two
things stand out: there has been a lot of argumentation and there has been
a lot of individualism in the discussion forum. And I am good at neither.
Both have stemmed from the Western dialectical tradition of the individual
defending and winning his position. Pirsig's MOQ is seductive because it
represents the "Holy Grail" of western philosophy;
the representation of reality beyond the subject object metaphysics.
Unfortunately, apart from the metaphors he provides,
there is no guide book to get there. Its every metaphysician for himself or
herself.
Rgds
Khoo Hock Aun
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