From: Joe (jhmau@sbcglobal.net)
Date: Wed Jul 30 2003 - 18:38:35 BST
On 28 July 2003 8:00 AM Khoo writes to Bo:
Hi Khoo, Bo, and all,
joe: Werlcome Khoo! First a nod to Bo for the words: "You should have
entered the discussion before Khoo, maybe we could have made better mileage"
this encouragement enabled me to read Khoo's wonderful post.
I don't know the etiquette for these things, and if I offend you, Khoo, by
addressing you on words you wrote to Bo, I say I am Sorry, in advance. I am
impressed by what you have to say.
Khoo:
The individual is indeed subjugated to society. To paraphase Spock: " the
needs of the many outweigh the needs of one." But not the "breaking of
will" as communist and fascist regimes would have
their respective populations. The individual submits willingly in the
context of their Asian cosmologies to the larger good and the greater
harmony. It would be a misconception to regard that Taoism restores
individuality when it actually teaches that none exists.
joe: I also like Star Trek movies. Following the movie containing your
paraphrase the circle of friends is subjugated to the individual. To
paraphrase Kirk: "the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many. You
are my friend." The social evolves to the intellectual. Individual
awareness alone interprets this evolution. It is my opinion that the Greek
phrase "gnawoothi s'auton" Know Thyself, refers to this sense of examining
our insights and conclusions.
Khoo:
At which point did the Western and Eastern traditions diverge ? The Subject
Object Metaphysics from Greece gave rise to the "structured" nature of
Western religion: Christainity, Judaism, and I would include here, Islam as
well which make up the Abrahamic faiths, from Testaments 1, 2 & 3
respectively. Subject object logic has been also thoroughly treated in both
Hindu and Buddhist metaphysics( the Abhidhamma) pre-dating the Greeks but
was never emphasised, all for good reason, including the understanding that
it would not be "salvific" (thanks, Scott) if pursued. The Hindu/Buddhist
cosmology extended into China as well and permeated Asian civilisation to
such an extent that it was not possible for a Indian or Chinese "Plato" or
"Aristotle" to position a structured subject-object metaphysics as the
primary philosophy for the East.
joe: in the past I never paid attention to the fact that three major
religions come from the same geographical area, and that they are based upon
the same stories. For me, I don't see that the stories come from a time of
sleep as Patrizia Noelli-Bachelet suggests in "September Trilogy - plus
One". The treatment of women in the three religions is not inspiring.
Khoo:
The Eastern religions are all "unstructured" in that they focus on practice
and experience rather than the authority of the Word. Confucianism is not a
religion but can be equated as a ruler's manual for the imposition and
maintenance of social order; and is structured only in this sense. Islam has
an "unstructured" Sufi tradition that has been suppressed. In being
unstructured and undefined; as compared to the rigidity of subject object
metaphysics, the Eastern tradition has avoided the dogma that has been the
bane of Western society.
joe: To see words like "unstructured", "focus on practice and experience",
"Islam has an "'unstructured' Sufi tradition that has been suppressed", "In
being unstructured and undefined; as compared to the rigidity of subject
object metaphysics" all in the same paragraph is, indeed, wonderful!
Bo:
You should have entered the discussion before Khoo, maybe we could have made
better mileage. Still, I think its basics must be solidified - and the
current definition of its intellect has been THE weak point. Judging by
Pirsig's words he would not be the least dismayed if it is questioned.
Khoo:
Truth be told, I stayed away from discussions then because I was doubtful I
could contribute much to the discussions on the intellectual level. Two
things stand out: there has been a lot of argumentation and there has been
a lot of individualism in the discussion forum. And I am good at neither.
Both have stemmed from the Western dialectical tradition of the individual
defending and winning his position. Pirsig's MOQ is seductive because it
represents the "Holy Grail" of western philosophy; the representation of
reality beyond the subject object metaphysics.
Unfortunately, apart from the metaphors he provides, there is no guide book
to get there. Its every metaphysician for himself or
herself.
joe: Sentients are predators! I do not know why?
Rgrds
Joe
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