From: SQUONKSTAIL@aol.com
Date: Wed Jul 30 2003 - 17:33:15 BST
On 28 Jul 2003 at 20:30, SQUONKSTAIL@aol.com wrote:
> Social era people surely knew the difference between telling
> lies and being honest, but did not have the sinister "absolute "
> quality that came with the SOM.
This is from my message to Brian, but Squonks disgust is so great
that he isn't able to say so, but having behaved of late I'll answer.
> sq: Absolute truth is not dependent upon subjects or objects.
I don't know why he keeps harping on "subjects and objects" as if it
has anything to do with me? I have suggested the intellectual level as
the VALUE OF the subjective/objective divide. Please get this
straight!
squonk: Intellect does not value such divisions. In fact, Aristotelian
physics impeded science for 2000 years because he argued for the geometric certainty
of form. Intellect values quality, which is an aesthetic appreciation of
experience.
> Absolute
> truth is rational - it's a ratio, proportion - geometry. There are no
> subjects or objects here. Absolute geometric truth is intellectual
> art, an aesthetic, and aesthetic is an appreciation of Quality.
What is said here may be correct but has no bearing on the SOL
issue.
squonk: Logic is an account of experience bounded by geometric certainty. So,
it has everything to do with it. Without geometric certainty there would be
no logic.
I have wondered why Squonk picked me out as the great evil
and I have arrived at the conclusion that he wants intellect to embrace
everything beautiful and noble, f.ex. the human search for beauty in
geometrical proportions, mathematical truth(s) and art.
squonk: Then you are wrong. Intellect created geometry and mathematics in an
aesthetic unity, but beauty is not confined to such very narrow limits. As
Plotinus pointed out, the most ugly Human being is more beautiful than the most
symmetrical perfect and proportioned statue, because the Human is alive.
This requires an "intellect" which is as old as the universe itself
because it is inorganic nature (via DQ) that has brought these
harmonies forth in the first place and in that case Pirsig should be the
target because MOQ's intellect is a STATIC level and as such subject
to all the limitations of the rest of the static sequence.
squonk: You assume too much. I do not say geometry and mathematics are
inorganic patterns. I am saying geometry and mathematics are artistic creations of
the human intellect.
As always Squonk means INTELLIGENCE, a phenomena that - along with
aesthetics, intuition purpose - are different aspect of (perception of)
Quality ...in my opinion.
squonk: I would be very grateful if you would desist from placing words or
meanings i do not intend into my mouth. If you wish to state your opinions,
please do so without reference to me.
I noticed this for Platt.
PLATT:
> > > "Finally, though it may be argued that a metaphysics that incorporates
a
> > > central term that isn't defined (i.e. Dynamic quality) isn't a real
> > > metaphysics, it can also be argued that the strength of the MOQ is its
> > > ability to incorporate the indeterminate divine within a coherent and
> > > logical paradigm."
SQUONK:
> > Really quite superb. This is my whole outlook on the MoQ.
True, but the indeterminate divine can never be part of any static level.
"The MOQ identifies religious mysticism with Dynamic Quality" (p 381)
squonk: The divine is always in a relationship with static patterns.
> Proving truth using the geometric method does not involve subjects or
> objects.
Correct! But why direct it my way? I have never said otherwise!
squonk: Have you not? Logic cannot work without truth, and logic is an
account determined by geometric certainty.
> The two are not related. However, one may claim to be able to
> use geometric method to give an account of social quality - arte,
> which is ridiculous, but impressive. (Aristotle's mean applied to
> ethics for example.) That's a bit like saying Keats is better than
> Milton on the basis of geometry.
Agree ...to the extent I understand.
> So, let us be clear - truth does not involve subjects or objects.
Agree about subjects and objects, but Q-intellect is all about
OBJECTIVITY. About distinguishing between what is (subjective)
opinion and scientific, objective, provable facts. The highest good ever
only subordinate to DQ itself.
squonk: There are no subjects and objects in the metaphysics of Quality. All
science is modelled using geometry and maths, as such it is intellectual art.
If you seriously believe that geometry and maths is objective then you are
mistaken - they are languages invented by humans. As such, they are intellectual
patterns of value.
> Truth is rational, and rationality is an artistic creation of the
> human intellect. Simple!
As always this unholy mix-up of the STATIC intellectual level and
intelligence.
Bo.
squonk: No level is static in that it never shares a relationship with DQ.
All static patterns are in a relationship with DQ. Intellect is the static
aspect of intelligence (symbolic representations of experience), while intelligence
is the Dynamic aspect organising static patterns.
P.S. I am not disgusted with you. I believe you are fundamentally mistaken
about a great many things, but you cannot seriously be blamed for that.
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