From: David MOREY (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Mon Sep 01 2003 - 10:11:52 BST
Hi
Yes, I agree with the 'interesting' rating for Mr Young.
Given the great value of the static/dynamic split in Pirsig,
I am interested in how the static patterns can fix themselves in the world,
or more precisely how
we can invent cultural concepts that sem to apply to repeating patterns in
our experience. Is there a possiblt science of these patterns? Of course,
physical science calls these patterns law and try to reduce all patterns to
lower level 'law' patterns. Any thoughts? Do you know Rupert Sheldrake's
work? His ideas may be useful in this area.
David Morey
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian Glendinning" <ian@psybertron.org>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 8:58 PM
Subject: RE: RE: MD economics of want and greed 4
> David (Morey),
>
> I have to say this A M Young stuff gets a bit "mystic" around 5, 6 and 7,
> but what is interesting is that even this breakdown starts with "physics"
> and ends up with some "intellectual mastery".
>
> The other point that I find interesting is that the cyclic link of 7 back
to
> 1.
> Perhaps the secret of matter really is that stuff (1) is made of dreams
(7)
> I have a putative "circle of life" model with a similar cyclic aspect.
>
> Anyway I have to say having now followed-up the link I recognise this guy
> from earlier investigations - Bell helicopter is the giveaway. I have him
> consigned to the "interesting" pigeon-hole for now along with Buckie
Fuller.
>
> Ian
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
> [mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On Behalf Of David MOREY
> Sent: 30 August 2003 14:51
> To: moq_discuss@moq.org
> Subject: Re: RE: MD economics of want and greed 4
>
>
> Hi
>
> here is a summary adapted from some of Arthur M Young's ideas:
>
> Out of the first, which we can call pure energy, came the many without
> individuality known as particles. Out of the second, or projected upon the
> second if you prefer, came the third, populated by the small empty ones
that
> we call atoms. From the third to the fourth. The end of falling, the
bottom
> of the pit, where static form becomes almost absolute over dynemic
freedom,
> and law determines nearly all. This is named the molecular level and is
> matter proper. After this onwards can only be backwards, back in the
> direction of dynamic freedom, back to the start of the circle. Here within
> the law a new space is cleared, and even the Second Law of thermodynamics
> has to wait. This, the fifth level, is occupied by the lords of symmetry:
> the plants. Six is the animal master of outer space and mother of the
> (instictual) inner. Seven is the brother of the first: in that this level
> seeks the dynamic. And seven is the bastard child of the first: in that
its
> freedom is lived out of the heavy bondage of the fourth. Seven is
therefore
> the one that is all the same and all different: a possibility known as
> an. -adapted from my unpublishable novel 'The Secret Of Matter' excuse
the
> oracular style please...
>
> Young's level four is molecular, five is plants, six is animals, and seven
> is man and all his qualities. Young's ideas about freedom and its
limitation
> seem similar to Pirsig's about dynamic and static quality. His books are
> generally only available now second hand, his best is the Reflective
> Universe, he also invented the Bell helicopter so he would know abit about
> mechanical maintenance, see his web site at http://www.arthuryoung.com/ he
> is sadly no longer with us.
>
> DM
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ian Glendinning" <ian@psybertron.org>
> To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 9:38 PM
> Subject: RE: RE: MD economics of want and greed 4
>
>
> > David,
> >
> > No, I haven't considered (even been aware of) Arthur M Young
> > but I like the sound of that.
> >
> > Fear of change and uncertainty is a common management issue.
> >
> > Ian
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
> > [mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On Behalf Of David MOREY
> > Sent: 29 August 2003 19:28
> > To: moq_discuss@moq.org
> > Subject: Re: RE: MD economics of want and greed 4
> >
> >
> > Hi all
> >
> > Have any of you people linked Pirsig's levels
> > to those suggested by Arthur M Young in his Reflexive Universe?
> >
> > Greed is often driven by fear. Fear is often the fear of dynamic
> > quality and the uncertainty it delivers. In the valueless present
> > we see too much of this negative side of dynamic quality, and fail
> > to embrace the possibility of positive activity. Greed is clinging to
> > static value patterns.
> >
> > DM
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "ERIN NOONAN" <enoonan@kent.edu>
> > To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> > Sent: Friday, August 29, 2003 6:08 PM
> > Subject: Re: RE: MD economics of want and greed 4
> >
> >
> > > Did you say you were a business man? Its funny because its really
> > > common in my experience that when I meet somebody who is really
> > > interested in Maslow they are also into business.
> > > I agree with the MOQ and disagree with Maslow's theory.
> > > I see some relations, like they both have levels. Surface similarity
> > > to me.
> > > Too many great works from people who lower needs were not being met in
> > > my opinion.
> > > I heard Maslow's mother kept a lock on their fridge, maybe hunger was
> > > the inspiration of his ideas :-)
> > >
> > > I thought in Lila's child Pirsig explicitly states that he doesn't say
> > > whether you can skip a level or not. Maslow explicitly states that
you
> > > can't.
> > > As for Pirsig's model it seems less likely to me that a level can be
> > > skipped. Possible I guess, but can't think of any examples. But in
> > > Maslow's I know of way too many examples of lower levels not being met
> > > and even in people who are considered self-actualized (and Maslow put
> > > that as less then 5% of the population). Actually after reading
> > > Maslow's life I think he may have been one of those people. Therefore
I
> > > don't believe his model is anywhere near as great as Pirsigs.
> > >
> > > Erin
> > >
> > >
> > > Ian Glendinning wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > >Wim,
> > > >
> > > >Maslow may indeed have thought "all behavior is determined", but I
have
> > > to
> > > >say when I say Maslow I mean the sum of all modern interpretations,
> > > >synthesis and extensions of his output, not an analysis of how
> > > misguided his
> > > >original thinking may have been, or whether he really used any
credible
> > > >metaphysics of any kind. (This is leading us back to nature / nurture
> > > and
> > > >evolutionary psychology again)
> > > >
> > > >The discreteness of layers, whilst still being dependent, supporting
> > > (even
> > > >conflicting) of each other is common to both Pirsig and Maslow I
> > > believe.
> > > >Although the level are discrete (in the sense of defining
prototypical
> > > >aspects of each), that doesn't mean the boundaries don't get fuzzy
> > > >sometimes, as you move to the interfaces and away from the central
> > > >prototypes
> > > >
> > > >I used to worry about anthropomorphism too, particularly in the
> > > metaphorical
> > > >use of active verbs like the examples you cite. Now however I feel it
> is
> > > >just human nature to do so in conceptual as well as linguistic
> > > metaphors,
> > > >and provided we never forget these are metaphors I think the model is
> > > >workable. (It seems a truism that we can never have anything but a
> human
> > > >perspective on the world, how ever arrogant our metaphysics gets.
> > > Better to
> > > >know this than to ignore it - I say.)
> > > >
> > > >How do I see the relation between "patterns of value" and "needs" ?
To
> > > be
> > > >honest I simply see a close parallel between the two frameworks -
which
> > > >always leads me to suspect some underlying relation - more human
nature
> > > to
> > > >suspect / seek rationale. If I were a betting man, I'd say Pirsig was
> > > more
> > > >fundamental (Foucault expresses a similar general philosophical
> > > framework
> > > >too IMHO), and that Maslow was just an outcome, a corollary or
evidence
> > > of
> > > >Pirsig's patterns of value at work in the world.
> > > >
> > > >Ian Glendinning
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > >From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
> > > >[mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On Behalf Of Wim Nusselder
> > > >Sent: 28 August 2003 22:25
> > > >To: moq_discuss@moq.org
> > > >Subject: Re: MD economics of want and greed 4
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Dear Ian,
> > > >
> > > >I see the parallel now between Maslow and Pirsig. Maslow seems to
apply
> > > >quite another metaphysics however (stating explicitly that all
behavior
> > > is
> > > >determined in the 1943 article I referred to).
> > > >
> > > >Pirsig wrote ('Lila' ch. 12):
> > > >'This classification of patterns is not very original, but the
> > > Metaphysics
> > > >of Quality allows an assertion about them that is unusual. It says
they
> > > are
> > > >not continuous. They are discrete. They have very little to do with
one
> > > >another. Although each higher level is built on a lower one it is not
> an
> > > >extension of that lower level. Quite the contrary. The higher level
can
> > > >often be seen to be in opposition to the lower level, dominating it,
> > > >controlling it where possible for its own purposes.'
> > > >
> > > >I don't particularly like the 'opposition', 'domination',
'controlling'
> > > and
> > > >'purposes' sentence. It antropomorphizes the levels more than my
> > > >understanding of them allows.
> > > >Do you think Maslow's levels of needs are as discrete and
discontinuous
> > > as
> > > >Pirsig's levels? How do you see the relation between 'patterns of
> > > value' and
> > > >'needs'?
> > > >
> > > >With friendly greetings,
> > > >
> > > >Wim
> > > >
> > > >----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
> > > >Van: "Ian Glendinning" <ian@psybertron.org>
> > > >Aan: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> > > >Verzonden: donderdag 28 augustus 2003 20:00
> > > >Onderwerp: RE: MD economics of want and greed 4
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> You're right Wim, I did just latch onto one point that already
> > > interested
> > > >> me, rather than looking for what your point was. Sorry about
> > > that,perhaps
> > > >I
> > > >> should have changed the thread title.
> > > >>
> > > >> I'm surprised the parallel between Maslow and Pirsig isn't more
> > > obvious to
> > > >> more people. It smacked me right between the eyes the first time I
> read
> > > >> Pirsig.
> > > >>
> > > >> Satisfaction of basic physical / biological needs at the lowest
level
> > > >> Satisfaction of social needs in the middle.
> > > >> Satisfaction of individual self-fulfillment / intellectual needs at
> the
> > > >top.
> > > >>
> > > >> What I was trying to say is that there is a strong parallel, even
if
> > > there
> > > >> isn't a one to one mapping between specific levels, or any direct
> link
> > > >> betwen the two.
> > > >>
> > > >> (The evolutionary psychology bit is another story, as you say.)
> > > >>
> > > >> Ian Glendinning
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
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