From: David MOREY (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Mon Sep 01 2003 - 18:50:27 BST
Yes, thanks I'll have a look
DM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Turner" <paulj.turner@ntlworld.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 11:04 AM
Subject: RE: MD Where things end.
> Hi David
>
> To add to that paper, I don't know if you've seen the Quantonics website
> hosted by an ex Lila Squad member, Doug Renselle? If you're keen on
> seeing the MOQ applied to quantum physics there may be some items of
> interest in his extensive website.
>
> Cheers
>
> Paul
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
> [mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk] On Behalf Of David MOREY
> Sent: 01 September 2003 10:14
> To: moq_discuss@moq.org
> Subject: Re: MD Where things end.
>
> Hi
>
> Yes I have printed it off to have a look.
>
> DM
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ian Glendinning" <ian@psybertron.org>
> To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2003 9:04 PM
> Subject: RE: MD Where things end.
>
>
> > David (Morey)
> >
> > Have you seen Pirig's 1995 Paper linking quantum physics with the MoQ
> ?
> > Subjects, Objects, Data and Values (SODV) - linked here
> > http://www.psybertron.org/2003_05_01_archive.html#200362107
> >
> > Ian
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
> > [mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On Behalf Of David MOREY
> > Sent: 30 August 2003 15:05
> > To: moq_discuss@moq.org
> > Subject: Re: MD Where things end.
> >
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > I think if you want to make progress with MoQ, which is also a sort of
> > anti-metaphysics if you prefer, you could ask how it fits in with
> current
> > particle physics theory. Quantum probability fields have a pretty
> uncertain
> > ontological status, I think this is due to their dynamic quality,
> where
> > there is no interaction or event this uncertain status remains, it
> seems
> > that only when an event occurs that you can point to any thing-like
> > appearance, it is as if the interaction produces the interacting
> things
> out
> > of what we call probability fields, the smudgy nature of which seem to
> > reflect both the nature of movement and dynamic quality
> >
> > DM
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <skutvik@online.no>
> > To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2003 8:13 AM
> > Subject: RE: MD Where things end.
> >
> >
> > > Hi Paul
> > > I start here, as always we make no progress until you start to
> > > summarize - an ability you have that I appreciate greatly.
> > >
> > > 28 Aug you wrote:
> > >
> > > > You refer to "inside the MOQ" and a "Quality Universe" as if it
> were
> > > > somewhere other than where we already are, right here, right now,
> all
> > > > around and inside. I think your "Metaphysics is Reality" belief is
> a
> > > > major problem.
> > >
> > > Yes, I do. Existence have this tendency to change in accordance with
> > > the range of view. Remember the example of a bug inside the sock?
> > > After it being turned inside out, reality changed from a smelly
> confined
> > > world to one of enormous vistas. It was the same yet changed
> > > fundamentally.
> > >
> > > A more real example is the cosmology of the "ancient world" (Social
> > > Reality) The "underworld" extended forever downwards and the sky
> > > forever upwards, then came the Copernican Revolution (Intellectual
> > > Reality) when these things were relativized; The same "here, right
> > > now, all around and inside" yet changed fundamentally. If this
> > > important phenomenon that Pirsig points to is a "problem" to you
> ...?
> > >
> > > > I think your logic goes:
> > >
> > > I printed this out and brought it with me on a walk to read it in
> > > portions. Even one's own view looks a little unfamiliar seen through
> > > another person's eyes ....
> > >
> > > > "If the MOQ includes "Dynamic Quality"
> > > > and Dynamic Quality is outside of static intellectual patterns
> > > > and the MOQ is reality itself
> > > > then the MOQ is also outside of static intellectual patterns"
> > >
> > > ....but this is as close as it comes!!!
> > >
> > > > This also explains why you have come up with the SOLAQI argument.
> You
> > > > extend the logic above in this way..
> > >
> > > Exactly!
> > >
> > > > "and because I can think about the MOQ (which is outside of static
> > > > intellectual patterns) then static intellectual patterns cannot be
> > > > synonymous with thoughts"
> > >
> > > Damn! This Is GOOD!
> > >
> > > > So to keep it all intact, you reduce mind to an era of
> "subject-object
> > > > thinking" and create a fifth level
> > >
> > > Even if I have backed down on the 5th level to a rebel intellectual
> > > pattern, this is exactly it.
> > >
> > > > or a "Quality Universe" in which
> > > > the MOQ is not "merely a metaphysics" but has replaced SOM as
> "reality
> > > > itself", just as you think the intellectual level once replaced
> the
> > > > social level as "reality itself".
> > >
> > > GREAT!!!
> > >
> > > > What I think you fail to see is that the metaphysical term
> "Dynamic
> > > > Quality" is a STATIC INTELLECTUAL REFERENCE to reality which is
> > > > understood by direct everyday experience WITHOUT THOUGHTS OR
> WORDS.
> > > > When you understand what it refers to you don't actually need the
> word
> > > > anymore.
> > >
> > > Maybe I was dizzy from your perfect understanding of the SOLAQI,
> > > but when it comes to this (critical) part ...hmmm. You see I'm not
> able
> > > to understand that anyone can understand it as well as you do and
> > > NOT "love" it ;-)
> > >
> > > From your above paragraph: " ....the metaphysical term DQ is a
> static
> > > intellectual reference ...etc." Again you make it sound as if I have
> > > overlooked some important point, and again it is a S/O difference,
> this
> > > time between words and reality (words are thoughts as Wittgenstein
> > > pointed out) You can make this S/O difference as subtle as you wish
> > > ...and the objective part as ineffable as you wish, still it is part
> of
> > > SOM's inexhaustible repertoire.
> > >
> > > In the SOL the Quality Idea started as a static intellectual pattern
> but
> > > proved to be too dynamic for intellectual "safety" and it is now
> > > suspended somewhere off-set to it.
> > >
> > > > "The Dynamic reality that goes beyond words is the constant focus
> of
> > > > Zen teaching. Because of their habituation to a world of words,
> > > > philosophers do not often understand Zen.
> > >
> > > I agree with this, Khoo told that Eastern tradition had their own
> S/O
> > > tradition, but it did not develop into a SOM like in the West and is
> > > what creates the Kiplingean Chasm (East is East ..etc.) but I don't
> > > see the bearing on our discussion?
> > >
> > > > When philosophers have
> > > > trouble understanding the distinction between static and Dynamic
> > > > Quality it can be because they are trying to include and
> subordinate
> > > > all Quality to thought patterns. The distinction between static
> and
> > > > Dynamic quality is intended to block this." [Pirsig quoted in Ant
> > > > McWatt's "Pirsig's MOQ"]
> > >
> > > Philosophers don't know the MOQ ...much less any Static/Dynamic
> > > difference. Regrettably.
> > >
> > > > But, living in an everyday world of differentiated experience,
> > > > "assertions of value" describes the ongoing process of
> differentiation
> > > > in a way that fits empirical experience with meaning and purpose.
> So
> > > > when we see that everyday differentiated experience can be
> > > > fundamentally reduced to values, we can infer that the ineffable
> > > > source of this experience is undifferentiated value, and refer to
> it
> > > > as "Dynamic Quality". It becomes a workable term for something we
> know
> > > > exists but can't define.
> > >
> > > Yes, yes, you don't need to convert me :-)
> > >
> > > > Bo:
> > > > Finally. In a message (9 Aug.) in this thread you said:
> > >
> > > > > As mentioned to Scott, I think you need to be more clear on what
> > >
> > > > "the S/O divide itself" refers to.
> > > >
> > > > I wielded my well-known "cultural" argument, but afterwards I
> thought:
> > > > "Doesn't Paul understand the presentation that Pirsig gives of the
> SOM
> > > > ...because this is what the S/O divide refers to.
> > >
> > > > Paul:
> > > > The accuracy of my understanding is of no consequence to you, that
> > > > "presentation" was from "1974 Pirsig", so according to you it is
> of no
> > > > value.
> > >
> > > The description of the emergence of SOM (in ZMM) is forever valid.
> > > But Paul, do you still find the "idealist" strategy useful? As said
> in
> > this
> > > message I am the first to admit that a fundamental change of outlook
> > > fundamentally changes reality, and maybe the MOQ is a metaphysics
> > > based on the premises that - FROM A SOM p.o.v. - everything is a
> > > human invention/only in our minds ...whatever. But once the dice is
> > > cast it is impossible to return saying that the MOQ is just a
> figment of
> > > the mind as long as the mind/matter divide is invalid ..as a
> > > metaphysics. The M is taken over by the MOQ. You who profess to
> > > understand the SOLAQI, can't you understand this crucial point.
> > >
> > >
> > > But anyway thanks Paul, you do a great job.
> > >
> > > Sincerely. Bo
> > >
> > >
> > >
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