From: skutvik@online.no
Date: Wed Sep 03 2003 - 09:24:03 BST
DMB and Group.
1 Sep. you wrote: (to Scott)
Who had said:
> We are self-conscious. Because of that, the way we perceive by senses
> is not the way animals or plants perceive by senses. Not that I know
> how they do, but I think being self-conscious is going to change
> everything all the way down.
> dmb says:
> It might be interesting to explore HOW self-consciousness effects our
> creature senses. I might change everything all the way down, but I
> suspect it only modifies and mollifies in a marginal way. I mean, I
> feel hunger differently than my dog "cricket", but not so much that we
> can rightly call it anything other than hunger. It seems to me that
> feelings of hunger, thirst, lust, fatigue, etc are feelings we have in
> common with animals. I think we can "feel" the values levels within
> and sort them out, at least to some extent. If each of us is a forest
> of static patterns, then its not too hard to imagine that we feel the
> pull of various and conflicting values. Naturally, this is where the
> moral codes come in, but it seems to me that the first step is
> learning to discriminate between our biological, social and
> intellectual "impulses", if you will.
As said to Scott "self-consciousness" is an arch-somish concept,
closely knit to its mind/matter divide and can't be transferred into the
MOQ without great transformations. S-C implies access to some
absolute reality which is counter to MOQ's open-ended universe, and
- most of all - counter to its value layer system.
I have earlier hinted to the problems of the traditional (SOM) approach
to Artificial Intelligence, that of believing that this state called
"consciousness" suddenly appearing inside a sufficiently complex
electronic circuit, the scary: "Ah I'm a computer, now I'll take control
from the humans". This will never happen even if we will be able to
grow biological brain-like computers. SOM's mind-out-of-matter (out of
biology in this case) is invalid, as you David are the first to know.
There is Q-intellect out of Q-society, but this has nothing to do with
self-consciousness in the SOM sense.
About the biological impulses (or bio value-mind) you are right. Those
are the same for us - as organisms - as for all organisms, but social
value-mind modifies those, you don't give free reins to them like
animals do. Intellectual value-mind in turn modify/mollify/control the
social impulses, and here is where the real action is. Maybe some day
we can start to discuss these infinitely interesting things.
Sincerely
Bo
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