From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Tue Sep 02 2003 - 02:30:16 BST
Scott and all MOQsters:
From Scott:
We are self-conscious. Because of that, the way we perceive by senses is not
the way animals or plants perceive by senses. Not that I know how they do,
but I think being self-conscious is going to change everything all the way
down.
dmb says:
It might be interesting to explore HOW self-consciousness effects our
creature senses. I might change everything all the way down, but I suspect
it only modifies and mollifies in a marginal way. I mean, I feel hunger
differently than my dog "cricket", but not so much that we can rightly call
it anything other than hunger. It seems to me that feelings of hunger,
thirst, lust, fatigue, etc are feelings we have in common with animals. I
think we can "feel" the values levels within and sort them out, at least to
some extent. If each of us is a forest of static patterns, then its not too
hard to imagine that we feel the pull of various and conflicting values.
Naturally, this is where the moral codes come in, but it seems to me that
the first step is learning to discriminate between our biological, social
and intellectual "impulses", if you will.
From Scott:
To extend what DMB has to say, though, is what, in my view, makes making
this distinction important. It is to emphasize that the redemption of Adam's
sin is not just reunion with God, but that we reunite without losing our
individuality. Otherwise, what's the point?
dmb says:
I didn't get your DQ/sq=S/O thing. Didn't seem to add up. But we agree here.
There's a world of difference between original participation and final
participation. (Barfield's terms, I think.) Wilber takes the idea even
further and depicts the whole evolutionary process as one of splitting away
in order to grow and then returning to the whole. Differentiation and
Re-integration are the terms he uses for it. Think of Pirisg's complaint
about SOM in this light. Specifically, the idea that SOM intellect beieves
it stands alone and was born without parents, is a product of biological
man, an epiphenomenon of the brain and all that. As Wilber explains it, this
is a case where differentiation has gone too far and intellect has been
dis-associated with its ground of being. In this case, re-integration is
more desperately needed and is more difficult. I think this only adds to
Pirsig's descriptions of the current crisis.
Thanks,
dmb
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