From: abahn@comcast.net
Date: Thu Sep 11 2003 - 19:37:55 BST
Yale,
No problem indeed. But, just to clear something up. I am a dabbler in things
put to the list that don't entice me to explore them. I am an explorer of areas
and ideas I have been enticed to explore.
Andy
> No problem. It was not written for dabblers like you, but rather explorers
> like Patrick. yale
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <abahn@comcast.net>
> To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 8:48 AM
> Subject: Re: MD Evolution of levels
>
>
> > Hi Yale,
> >
> > Thanks, but I'd rather take the easy way out. :-)
> >
> > Andy
> > > From: <abahn@comcast.net>
> > > To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 5:33 AM
> > > Subject: Re: MD Evolution of levels
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi Yale,
> > > >
> > > > I have read your paper. Or more honestly skimmed it. You seem to
> want
> > > someone
> > > > on the list to confirm your belief that there is a connection between
> > > Pirsig and
> > > > your paper (fractal philosophy). Why don't you just tell us about the
> > > > connection instead of making us needlessly wait in suspense.
> > > >
> > > > merely suggesting,
> > > > Andy
> > > >
> > >
> > > Hi Andy, the Fractal Philosophy paper at http://yalelands.com/frph.pdf
> is
> > > meant to be read and commented upon by professional and amateur
> philosophers
> > > willing to bet some time (expend their to to hopefully get some
> worthwhile
> > > reward.)
> > >
> > > And I am sugesting that there is a lot in it about some interest aspects
> of
> > > hierarchies of levels and levels of hierarchies.
> > >
> > > Rather than keep you in suspense about where it might be sympatico with
> MoQ,
> > > permit me to reference comments by one of your memebers who actually
> took
> >
> > > the time to read and reflect upon it, instead of looking for the easy
> way
> > > out....
> > >
> > > Dear Yale,
> > >
> > > It was yours, the article? Then my apologies for my harsh comment at the
> > > beginning at the post about 'the author'. Uhm, let me put it more mildly
> > > what I said: the old Greek philosophers used this dialogue-technique, in
> > > which it was true that the writer assumed rather naieve and 'stupid'
> > > commenters. The technique you used addresses the reader directly, which
> > > has the advantage that it can create a more personal touch, but in many
> > > cases I did't assume the stance you ascribed to your potential readers.
> > > And true, the recurring suggestions about the assumed stance of the
> > > reader kind of irritated me (which left the reader stupid and the author
> > > smart!). Anyhow, your style of writing was original and playful. Thus,
> > > the attempt had DQ, but the it didn't lead (in my humble opinion) to a
> > > static quality-form it potentially could have.
> > > ;-)
> > >
> > > All the best, Patrick.
> > >
> > >
> > > And...
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear YL,
> > >
> >
> > > The pdf-file was interesting, although the ego-blown style of the author
> > > irritated me. It does have similarities with Pirsig seeing Lila. In the
> > > café he notices she notices that he is watching her, and she notices
> > > that he notices that she notices he is watching her, etc. ad infinitum.
> > > Like standing between two mirrors, you have a reflection of a reflection
> > > of a reflection. The fellow of this pdf-file applies a similar strategy.
> > >
> > > Two things I found particularly interesting:
> > > The first is that he uses a mathematical metaphor of the seemingly ease
> > > of going away from a spot: Any direction is adequate, north, west, south
> > > or inbetween. Finding a good alternative narrows you options
> > > considerably, however. The place you want to go is either north or south
> > > or another particular direction. What Pirsig says about the
> > > hippie-movement is that the hippies were good at walking away from the
> > > center of the western culture of the sixties- they didn't, however, know
> >
> > > where to turn to. That's why the movement virtually bleeded to death.
> > >
> > > The second thing I found interesting was the notion of aming at turning
> > > towards turning towards something. It has a relation with the concept
> > > of free will. What does it mean to turn your attention to something (to
> > > will something)? In order to do that, you have to change your thinking
> > > from this to that (to the topic you want to focus on). And how do you
> > > initiate this change? By accelareting from some zero-point, so that you
> > > can accomplish an amount of changing your attention. But how do you
> > > start to accelerate? By starting to accelerate you acceleration. This
> > > leads to an obvious paradox. How is it ever possible to turn your
> > > attention towards something? How is free will possible? (This is a
> > > version of psychology's homunculi, by the way)
> > >
> > > The notion of a fractal philosophy is quite big and interesting.
> > > Relating such a big idea to the whole edifice of the MoQ seems to me
> >
> > > daunting. Nevertheless interesting. Maybe cartesian philosophy (SOM)
> > > tries to zoom in on a fractal- hoping someday to see the ultimate
> > > building blocks! Pirsig would say: Hey, you're just going in one
> > > possible direction. There are others, not only by 'zooming in' but by
> > > staying at one level and walk around there, or better: zoom in a bit but
> > > going to the 'left' simultanously. (Fits into another metaphor of
> > > Pirsig: His idea of a chaqautua meaning to deepen the riverpaths of our
> > > behaviors, instead of creating new ones only to end up in one shallow
> > > homogenous river.)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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