Re: MD Evolution of levels

From: Yale Landsberg (yale_landsberg@yalelands.com)
Date: Fri Sep 12 2003 - 15:40:37 BST

  • Next message: abahn@comcast.net: "Re: MD Evolution of levels"

    Hi Andy,

    Scr-w the Fractal Philosophy paper! What I am talking about is something
    more basic, as fundamental as anything else people qualitatively and
    quantitatively do every moment of their existence. They are either
    exploring new uncharted, possible opportunities, y, of thinking and doing --
    or corraling themselves into old proven and satisfactory ways of thinking
    and doing, x. when they are confortable about some x, they stay at x, when
    in need of relief, fullfillment, they seek to hopefully arrive at y. True?

    regards, yale

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: <abahn@comcast.net>
    To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
    Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 5:46 AM
    Subject: Re: MD Evolution of levels

    > Hi Yale:
    >
    > You said: "the mode of real explorers who by definition have abolutely no
    idea
    > of how much effort is needed to do their explorations, nor even if they
    will
    > succeed, and even if they succeeed wil the exploration havebeen worth it?"
    >
    > Andy: Hmmm. Sounds to me like there is not any inherent contradiction
    between
    > "real" exploring and taking the easy way out. You are making an
    assumption that
    > what I am doing is not "real" exploring. And that for any "real"
    exploring to
    > take place I would have to follow a path that goes through your paper
    along with
    > a time commitment to reflect upon it. But, "real" explorers have to
    follow
    > something, even if it is just a gut instinct, when choosing which paths to
    > explore. I don't know exactly what it is, but all of your pleading and
    cajoling
    > to the list about the merits of your paper and now your insinuation that
    > explorers MUST travel through it, leave me no doubt that this area of
    > exploration has little fruitful benefits and is something one should
    avoid.
    >
    > Thanks, but no thanks,
    > Andy
    >
    > Andy
    > > Fair enough. OTOH, consider this: one of the most interesting things
    about
    > > real exploring as compared with the phony-baloney kind is that the more
    > > unclear and dangerous the territory to be explored, whether darkest
    Africa
    > > two centuries ago, or digging down deep into the gold mine of
    metaphysics,
    > > the less likely it is that the explorer knows well enough exactly when
    to
    > > stop moving along path 1, then which way to turn, and how many steps to
    take
    > > before again exactly stopping on path 2, turning, taking how many
    steps...
    > > So iit is highly probable that Patrick van den Berg was not so much
    enticed
    > > as he used and uses a different mode of exploring than you, the mode of
    > > real explorers who by definition have abolutely no idea of how much
    effort
    > > is needed to do their explorations, nor even if they will succeed, and
    even
    > > if they succeeed wil the exploration havebeen worth it? As most
    > > self-described "explorers" are not risk averse, they are not really
    >
    > > exploring. In any case, we can all agree that Robert Pirsig was, and
    (if he
    > > is with us) still probably is one of the 20th centuries greatest real
    > > explorers.. YL
    > >
    > >
    > > ----- Original Message -----
    > > From: <abahn@comcast.net>
    > > To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
    > > Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 11:37 AM
    > > Subject: Re: MD Evolution of levels
    > >
    > >
    > > > Yale,
    > > >
    > > > No problem indeed. But, just to clear something up. I am a dabbler
    in
    > > things
    > > > put to the list that don't entice me to explore them. I am an
    explorer of
    > > areas
    > > > and ideas I have been enticed to explore.
    > > >
    > > > Andy
    > > > > No problem. It was not written for dabblers like you, but rather
    > > explorers
    > > > > like Patrick. yale
    > > > > ----- Original Message -----
    > > > > From: <abahn@comcast.net>
    > > > > To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
    > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 8:48 AM
    > > > > Subject: Re: MD Evolution of levels
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > > Hi Yale,
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Thanks, but I'd rather take the easy way out. :-)
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Andy
    > > > > > > From: <abahn@comcast.net>
    >
    > > > > > > To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
    > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 5:33 AM
    > > > > > > Subject: Re: MD Evolution of levels
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > Hi Yale,
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > I have read your paper. Or more honestly skimmed it. You
    seem to
    > > > > want
    > > > > > > someone
    > > > > > > > on the list to confirm your belief that there is a connection
    > > between
    > > > > > > Pirsig and
    > > > > > > > your paper (fractal philosophy). Why don't you just tell us
    about
    > > the
    > > > > > > > connection instead of making us needlessly wait in suspense.
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > merely suggesting,
    > > > > > > > Andy
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Hi Andy, the Fractal Philosophy paper at
    > > http://yalelands.com/frph.pdf
    > > > > is
    > > >
    > > > > > > meant to be read and commented upon by professional and amateur
    > > > > philosophers
    > > > > > > willing to bet some time (expend their to to hopefully get some
    > > > > worthwhile
    > > > > > > reward.)
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > And I am sugesting that there is a lot in it about some interest
    > > aspects
    > > > > of
    >
    > > > > > > hierarchies of levels and levels of hierarchies.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Rather than keep you in suspense about where it might be
    sympatico
    > > with
    > > > > MoQ,
    > > > > > > permit me to reference comments by one of your memebers who
    actually
    > > > > took
    > > > > >
    > > > > > > the time to read and reflect upon it, instead of looking for the
    > > easy
    > > > > way
    > > > > > > out....
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Dear Yale,
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > It was yours, the article? Then my apologies for my harsh
    comment at
    > > the
    > > > > > > beginning at the post about 'the author'. Uhm, let me put it
    more
    > > mildly
    > > > > > > what I said: the old Greek philosophers used this
    > > dialogue-technique, in
    > > > > > > which it was true that the writer assumed rather naieve and
    'stupid'
    > > > > > > commenters. The technique you used addresses the reader
    directly,
    > > which
    > > >
    > > > > > > has the advantage that it can create a more personal touch, but
    in
    > > many
    > > > > > > cases I did't assume the stance you ascribed to your potential
    > > readers.
    >
    > > > > > > And true, the recurring suggestions about the assumed stance of
    the
    > > > > > > reader kind of irritated me (which left the reader stupid and
    the
    > > author
    > > > > > > smart!). Anyhow, your style of writing was original and playful.
    > > Thus,
    > > > > > > the attempt had DQ, but the it didn't lead (in my humble
    opinion) to
    > > a
    > > > > > > static quality-form it potentially could have.
    > > > > > > ;-)
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > All the best, Patrick.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > And...
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Dear YL,
    > > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > > > The pdf-file was interesting, although the ego-blown style of
    the
    > > author
    > > > > > > irritated me. It does have similarities with Pirsig seeing Lila.
    In
    > > the
    > > > > > > café he notices she notices that he is watching her, and she
    notices
    > > > > > > that he notices that she notices he is watching her, etc. ad
    > > infinitum.
    > > > > > > Like standing between two mirrors, you have a reflection of a
    > > reflection
    > > >
    > > > > > > of a reflection. The fellow of this pdf-file applies a similar
    > > strategy.
    > > > > > >
    >
    > > > > > > Two things I found particularly interesting:
    > > > > > > The first is that he uses a mathematical metaphor of the
    seemingly
    > > ease
    > > > > > > of going away from a spot: Any direction is adequate, north,
    west,
    > > south
    > > > > > > or inbetween. Finding a good alternative narrows you options
    > > > > > > considerably, however. The place you want to go is either north
    or
    > > south
    > > > > > > or another particular direction. What Pirsig says about the
    > > > > > > hippie-movement is that the hippies were good at walking away
    from
    > > the
    > > > > > > center of the western culture of the sixties- they didn't,
    however,
    > > know
    > > > > >
    > > > > > > where to turn to. That's why the movement virtually bleeded to
    > > death.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > The second thing I found interesting was the notion of aming at
    > > turning
    > > > > > > towards turning towards something. It has a relation with the
    > > concept
    > > > > > > of free will. What does it mean to turn your attention to
    something
    > > (to
    > > >
    > > > > > > will something)? In order to do that, you have to change your
    >
    > > thinking
    > > > > > > from this to that (to the topic you want to focus on). And how
    do
    > > you
    > > > > > > initiate this change? By accelareting from some zero-point, so
    that
    > > you
    > > > > > > can accomplish an amount of changing your attention. But how do
    you
    > > > > > > start to accelerate? By starting to accelerate you acceleration.
    > > This
    > > > > > > leads to an obvious paradox. How is it ever possible to turn
    your
    > > > > > > attention towards something? How is free will possible? (This is
    a
    > > > > > > version of psychology's homunculi, by the way)
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > The notion of a fractal philosophy is quite big and interesting.
    > > > > > > Relating such a big idea to the whole edifice of the MoQ seems
    to me
    > > > > >
    > > > > > > daunting. Nevertheless interesting. Maybe cartesian philosophy
    (SOM)
    > > > > > > tries to zoom in on a fractal- hoping someday to see the
    ultimate
    > > > > > > building blocks! Pirsig would say: Hey, you're just going in one
    > > > > > > possible direction. There are others, not only by 'zooming in'
    but
    > > by
    > > >
    >
    > > > > > > staying at one level and walk around there, or better: zoom in a
    bit
    > > but
    > > > > > > going to the 'left' simultanously. (Fits into another metaphor
    of
    > > > > > > Pirsig: His idea of a chaqautua meaning to deepen the riverpaths
    of
    > > our
    > > > > > > behaviors, instead of creating new ones only to end up in one
    > > shallow
    > > > > > > homogenous river.)
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > >
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