From: abahn@comcast.net
Date: Fri Sep 12 2003 - 13:46:07 BST
Hi Yale:
You said: "the mode of real explorers who by definition have abolutely no idea
of how much effort is needed to do their explorations, nor even if they will
succeed, and even if they succeeed wil the exploration havebeen worth it?"
Andy: Hmmm. Sounds to me like there is not any inherent contradiction between
"real" exploring and taking the easy way out. You are making an assumption that
what I am doing is not "real" exploring. And that for any "real" exploring to
take place I would have to follow a path that goes through your paper along with
a time commitment to reflect upon it. But, "real" explorers have to follow
something, even if it is just a gut instinct, when choosing which paths to
explore. I don't know exactly what it is, but all of your pleading and cajoling
to the list about the merits of your paper and now your insinuation that
explorers MUST travel through it, leave me no doubt that this area of
exploration has little fruitful benefits and is something one should avoid.
Thanks, but no thanks,
Andy
Andy
> Fair enough. OTOH, consider this: one of the most interesting things about
> real exploring as compared with the phony-baloney kind is that the more
> unclear and dangerous the territory to be explored, whether darkest Africa
> two centuries ago, or digging down deep into the gold mine of metaphysics,
> the less likely it is that the explorer knows well enough exactly when to
> stop moving along path 1, then which way to turn, and how many steps to take
> before again exactly stopping on path 2, turning, taking how many steps...
> So iit is highly probable that Patrick van den Berg was not so much enticed
> as he used and uses a different mode of exploring than you, the mode of
> real explorers who by definition have abolutely no idea of how much effort
> is needed to do their explorations, nor even if they will succeed, and even
> if they succeeed wil the exploration havebeen worth it? As most
> self-described "explorers" are not risk averse, they are not really
> exploring. In any case, we can all agree that Robert Pirsig was, and (if he
> is with us) still probably is one of the 20th centuries greatest real
> explorers.. YL
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <abahn@comcast.net>
> To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 11:37 AM
> Subject: Re: MD Evolution of levels
>
>
> > Yale,
> >
> > No problem indeed. But, just to clear something up. I am a dabbler in
> things
> > put to the list that don't entice me to explore them. I am an explorer of
> areas
> > and ideas I have been enticed to explore.
> >
> > Andy
> > > No problem. It was not written for dabblers like you, but rather
> explorers
> > > like Patrick. yale
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: <abahn@comcast.net>
> > > To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 8:48 AM
> > > Subject: Re: MD Evolution of levels
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi Yale,
> > > >
> > > > Thanks, but I'd rather take the easy way out. :-)
> > > >
> > > > Andy
> > > > > From: <abahn@comcast.net>
> > > > > To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 5:33 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: MD Evolution of levels
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Yale,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have read your paper. Or more honestly skimmed it. You seem to
> > > want
> > > > > someone
> > > > > > on the list to confirm your belief that there is a connection
> between
> > > > > Pirsig and
> > > > > > your paper (fractal philosophy). Why don't you just tell us about
> the
> > > > > > connection instead of making us needlessly wait in suspense.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > merely suggesting,
> > > > > > Andy
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Andy, the Fractal Philosophy paper at
> http://yalelands.com/frph.pdf
> > > is
> >
> > > > > meant to be read and commented upon by professional and amateur
> > > philosophers
> > > > > willing to bet some time (expend their to to hopefully get some
> > > worthwhile
> > > > > reward.)
> > > > >
> > > > > And I am sugesting that there is a lot in it about some interest
> aspects
> > > of
> > > > > hierarchies of levels and levels of hierarchies.
> > > > >
> > > > > Rather than keep you in suspense about where it might be sympatico
> with
> > > MoQ,
> > > > > permit me to reference comments by one of your memebers who actually
> > > took
> > > >
> > > > > the time to read and reflect upon it, instead of looking for the
> easy
> > > way
> > > > > out....
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear Yale,
> > > > >
> > > > > It was yours, the article? Then my apologies for my harsh comment at
> the
> > > > > beginning at the post about 'the author'. Uhm, let me put it more
> mildly
> > > > > what I said: the old Greek philosophers used this
> dialogue-technique, in
> > > > > which it was true that the writer assumed rather naieve and 'stupid'
> > > > > commenters. The technique you used addresses the reader directly,
> which
> >
> > > > > has the advantage that it can create a more personal touch, but in
> many
> > > > > cases I did't assume the stance you ascribed to your potential
> readers.
> > > > > And true, the recurring suggestions about the assumed stance of the
> > > > > reader kind of irritated me (which left the reader stupid and the
> author
> > > > > smart!). Anyhow, your style of writing was original and playful.
> Thus,
> > > > > the attempt had DQ, but the it didn't lead (in my humble opinion) to
> a
> > > > > static quality-form it potentially could have.
> > > > > ;-)
> > > > >
> > > > > All the best, Patrick.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > And...
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear YL,
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > The pdf-file was interesting, although the ego-blown style of the
> author
> > > > > irritated me. It does have similarities with Pirsig seeing Lila. In
> the
> > > > > café he notices she notices that he is watching her, and she notices
> > > > > that he notices that she notices he is watching her, etc. ad
> infinitum.
> > > > > Like standing between two mirrors, you have a reflection of a
> reflection
> >
> > > > > of a reflection. The fellow of this pdf-file applies a similar
> strategy.
> > > > >
> > > > > Two things I found particularly interesting:
> > > > > The first is that he uses a mathematical metaphor of the seemingly
> ease
> > > > > of going away from a spot: Any direction is adequate, north, west,
> south
> > > > > or inbetween. Finding a good alternative narrows you options
> > > > > considerably, however. The place you want to go is either north or
> south
> > > > > or another particular direction. What Pirsig says about the
> > > > > hippie-movement is that the hippies were good at walking away from
> the
> > > > > center of the western culture of the sixties- they didn't, however,
> know
> > > >
> > > > > where to turn to. That's why the movement virtually bleeded to
> death.
> > > > >
> > > > > The second thing I found interesting was the notion of aming at
> turning
> > > > > towards turning towards something. It has a relation with the
> concept
> > > > > of free will. What does it mean to turn your attention to something
> (to
> >
> > > > > will something)? In order to do that, you have to change your
> thinking
> > > > > from this to that (to the topic you want to focus on). And how do
> you
> > > > > initiate this change? By accelareting from some zero-point, so that
> you
> > > > > can accomplish an amount of changing your attention. But how do you
> > > > > start to accelerate? By starting to accelerate you acceleration.
> This
> > > > > leads to an obvious paradox. How is it ever possible to turn your
> > > > > attention towards something? How is free will possible? (This is a
> > > > > version of psychology's homunculi, by the way)
> > > > >
> > > > > The notion of a fractal philosophy is quite big and interesting.
> > > > > Relating such a big idea to the whole edifice of the MoQ seems to me
> > > >
> > > > > daunting. Nevertheless interesting. Maybe cartesian philosophy (SOM)
> > > > > tries to zoom in on a fractal- hoping someday to see the ultimate
> > > > > building blocks! Pirsig would say: Hey, you're just going in one
> > > > > possible direction. There are others, not only by 'zooming in' but
> by
> >
> > > > > staying at one level and walk around there, or better: zoom in a bit
> but
> > > > > going to the 'left' simultanously. (Fits into another metaphor of
> > > > > Pirsig: His idea of a chaqautua meaning to deepen the riverpaths of
> our
> > > > > behaviors, instead of creating new ones only to end up in one
> shallow
> > > > > homogenous river.)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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