From: skutvik@online.no
Date: Sat Sep 13 2003 - 07:56:29 BST
Paul, Matt and all interested parties.
On 11 Sep. Paul wrote:
> > Matt:
> > I think I agree with you when you bring up point (c), "It doesn't
> > fit with the statement that levels are not continuous." Pirsig says
> > explicitly that the levels are discrete and I would take that to
> > mean that the leap from level to level is just that: a leap, not a
> > muddled shuffle.
Guys! I don't think we really disagree on this issue, there are plenty
bones of contentment left.
> Paul:
> I don't think so. When you start to think in terms of patterns, there
> is nothing essential and unchanging outside of the pattern to which
> the pattern clings to. A biological pattern does not "leave home" and
> become a social pattern of value. A social pattern of values is
> created, and that's it.
You have a tendency to seek refuge in some mysticism ...here about
"nothing essential and unchanging outside of the pattern to which the
pattern clings to". Life clings to matter, society clings to the individual
and Intellect clings to society. But - again - inside biology everything is
biological, there's no "carbon" there. This goes for the rest of the levels
too.
I admit that ".. going off ...etc" is awkward. The element carbon does
not "leave home" seen from the inorganic level, rather it was/is
ambiguous enough to become the vehicle for life. The biological
pattern "ambiguous" enough to become the vehicle for society? What
is your guess ...all of you?
> Paul:
> The levels are defined by the patterns, a level is the collection of
> patterns. So it is not that "a level" does something to a pattern,
> like usurping. I think it is more that DQ changes a pattern into a new
> pattern.
Yes, it's DQ that does the usurping, we agree here
> Paul:
> Carbon is a name given to an inorganic pattern of values. DNA is the
> name given to a biological pattern of values. They are completely
> discrete in the MOQ. As Pirsig says - a carbon atom does not possess
> or guide life.
Well it's Pirsig who uses the names, but regarding DNA I think the
carbon as a vehicle is explanation enough.
> Bo: (about the socio/intell. relationship)
> Here Pirsig does not suggest what could have been the social pattern
> that DQ used for its ride to intellect, but I believe that language is
> widely accepted.
> Paul:
> Widely accepted, indeed. My question, though, is this - is it the
> wrong way to look at evolution to look for one pattern that exists in
> two levels? I think it is. I think the confusion may be because we
> have names for things which refer to a collection of patterns existing
> at different levels. Language being one of them. A human being is
> another.
Again you take off into a nameless mysticism. Language is a very
good candidate. It gave (social reality) the impression of a "name"
realm different from the real thing realm and thus triggered the
intellectual subject/object value jump.
Bo:
> I think that the idea of progress within each level being complication
> rather than improvement (improvement is between the levels) has some
> bearing on this issue.
> Paul:
> This is another assumption to pin down - improvement is between the
> levels - I can't see where you have got this from.
Where from? For example. It is said that new particles first appear as
results from equations and are a big surprise to the theorists. We may
look on Phaedrus as one who fed all the latest ideas into his equation
and out came the Quality result. He was crestfallen as we know. No
comparison, but both the SOLAQI and the said "complication" idea
arrived as results from my own "equations". I would not have been so
obstinate if they weren't not so compelling.
Sincerely
Bo
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