From: skutvik@online.no
Date: Sun Sep 14 2003 - 07:39:31 BST
Jonathan and MDiscuss.
11 Sep. Jonathan wrote:
> According to *PIRSIG's* MoQ, mind=Intellectual+Social levels
> He says so explicitly in Lila (not that I like it)
I know, but it's the definition of intellect as "an exact equivalent to
mind" that I object to.
> BO
> Thus "intellectual description" is reality describe from the
> intellectual level, no great revelation that, but intellect is not a
> mind realm, rather the value of separating the abstract from the
> concrete.
> JONATHAN
> Abstract vs. Concrete heh!
> If that isn't Descartes, then I don't know what is!!!
Of course it is. I have been proposing this for a decade or so. This
cuts the whole d..ed Gordic knot clean through!!. Q-intellect is the
S/O, all of it, every last bit, while the MOQ is the intellectual pattern ...
..ambiguous enough for DQ to use it for the escape from intellect.
> BO
> What is
> described in ZAMM as pre-intellectual and gives rise to the
> subject/object reality is the intellectual LEVEL of the MOQ, but there
> are three more levels where no such division exists!.
> JONATHAN
> That may be according to Bodvar's MoQ, but is nothing like what Pirsig
> said. He said that the "Social level" is on the mind and subject side
> of the Cartesian split. I don't find that approach to be useful
My MOQ? I accept all the Quality axioms, why is the SOLAQI so
outrageous?
> JONATHAN
> I stand by it - patterns at all levels can be "intellectualized".
> That's what pattern description/definition is!
You (too) seem to fall in the language trap, as if Q-evolution reached
the intellectual stage along with language, but this can't be so. The
social reality lasted for tens of thousands of years (the Cro Magnons
the first to use language I'm told. 50k years ago) and hey surely
"described" many things and made up a lot of theories so THAT can't
define intellect.
But ...attention, language may have been the social pattern that DQ
rode to intellect and is now found in every "intellectual" pattern in the
same way that carbon is found in every living being. And language will
forever be part of Q-evolution in the same sense that the carbon atom
is BUT IT DOES NOT DEFINE Q-INTELLECT.
But another mechanism kicks in: All levels in their era as top notch
denies any value above itself, and everybody seem to be under
intellect's spell these days. We get all these weird definition among
those your own about all existence having an intellectual "shadow".
MOQ is the first effort to transgress intellects borders, but its initial
promising variety - the one that defined intellectual reality as the
origin of the S/O divide - is now attacked from all quarters.
Sincerely.
Bo
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