From: Jonathan B. Marder (jonathan.marder@newmail.net)
Date: Thu Sep 11 2003 - 17:02:18 BST
Hi Bo and all,
JONATHAN
> The issue is of how discreet patterns are discerned from what we
> assume to be a continuum of reality. Clearly this involves primary and
> secondary waves of perception, that build up to what you and I would
> call an (intellectual description). You might choose to resolve this
> into a primary preintellectual process (direct experience?) an
> secondary abstraction process.
BO replied
OK, but this sounds what all thinkers before Pirsig (or oblivious of
him) has said. "Intellect" is the usual mental/mind vessel where ideas
slosh around. But enter the MOQ where intellect is something else
than mind (in the same way that the inorganic level is something else
than matter)
JONATHAN
According to *PIRSIG's* MoQ, mind=Intellectual+Social levels
He says so explicitly in Lila (not that I like it)
BO
Thus "intellectual description" is reality describe from the intellectual
level, no great revelation that, but intellect is not a mind realm, rather
the value of separating the abstract from the concrete.
JONATHAN
Abstract vs. Concrete heh!
If that isn't Descartes, then I don't know what is!!!
BO
What is
described in ZAMM as pre-intellectual and gives rise to the
subject/object reality is the intellectual LEVEL of the MOQ, but there
are three more levels where no such division exists!.
JONATHAN
That may be according to Bodvar's MoQ, but is nothing like what Pirsig said.
He said that the "Social level" is on the mind and subject side of the
Cartesian split.
I don't find that approach to be useful
JONATHAN (before)
> >"I don't see the S/O divide as a social pattern.
> >It is an (intellectual) description of perception AT ALL LEVELS."
BO
...it looked promising at first. You don't see the S/O as social and that
makes it intellect - I hoped(!) - but "...an intellectual description of
perception at all levels" sounds like everything is intellect!? As if there
were no inorganic, biological or society realities before intellect, only a
diffuse pre-intellectual "continuum".
JONATHAN
I stand by it - patterns at all levels can be "intellectualized".
That's what pattern description/definition is!
Sincerely,
Jonathan
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