From: Ian Glendinning (ian@psybertron.org)
Date: Mon Sep 15 2003 - 13:34:19 BST
David (Morey) and all,
I like this summary.
I too feel Rorty and Pirsig are very close pragmatically in their non-SOM
approach.
(Though having started Rorty with his Mirror of Nature tome I'm only slowly
getting into him, other than second hand references)
I also consider Pirsig far from original, except in his creation of his
patterns of value and levels of static and dynamic quality (MoQ) model as a
marvellous practical tool or framework through which to view the world.
Talking of Pirsig's non-originality, for me it is clear how Northrop and
James influenced him, and that he acknowledges this, but what is not at all
clear is whether he was really unaware of the existentialists, other
pragmatists and later schools of thought. Not wrong, but intriguing. What he
doesn't acknowledge is the extent to which the Aristoleian "Chicago school"
furore was well documented by Northrop (the book he read on the troopship
back from Korea) long before his "megalomaniac" letter to the chairman.
Talking of Northrop, I'm still working through the Meeting of East and West.
It's a marvellous book. Apart from the MoQ itself, there is little in ZMM /
Lila that's not in Northrop, and a lot more thorough philosophological
review of how prevalent world-views came to be. Pirsig does of course
provide shorter sentences and more dramatic novels though :-)
Ian
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk
[mailto:owner-moq_discuss@venus.co.uk]On Behalf Of David MOREY
Sent: 14 September 2003 16:21
To: moq_discuss@moq.org
Subject: Re: MD A metaphysics
Dear DMB
Pirsig is not so original in questioning SOM
as some people seem to think, but I think
he does an excellent job of explaining what
a non-SOM approach is all about in a non-jargon way.
Rorty is very low on jargon, not always clear from Matt's
fondness for the Rorty slogans. I have read most of Rorty
and came to Pirsig afterwards and there is no doubt in my
mind that they both strongly criticise SOM. Rorty, however, goes
only so far, he decides that in the ware against SOM it is better
to consolidate, put up some great attacks on the opposition,
dig in, and throw a few crumbs to the realist-scientist camp in the form
of physicalism. Not a bad idea and Rorty is making a case not too far off
the mainstream. Pirsig goes a bit further, maybe his arguments are a bit
thinner,
though this does not mean questionable -just less dug in, of course,
irsig is way out of the sights of the mainstream despite the early success.
So well done Rorty. I think the connections to Rorty would do Pirsig good.
Where Pirsig is no non-reductive physicalist, is a weakness in Rorty already
discussed by the likes of Andrew Bowie in the UK. Matt thinks Pirsig goes
too
far, OK, but he is still on the anti-SOM side by a long way. DMB you should
do
some work and read Rorty so that we can pull him futher away from SOM,
but he is already a lot nearer Pirsig that all the anti-Rorty brigade.
Regards
David M
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Buchanan" <DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 11:35 PM
Subject: RE: MD A metaphysics
> Matt said:
> Rorty doesn't talk a tremendous amount about the concept of "beauty", to
my
> knowledge, except to say that it is thin, like the terms "true" and
"good".
> By thin, Rorty moreorless means undefineable, which pretty much matches
with
> Pirsig.
>
> dmb says:
> I doubt it very much. I strongly suspect that "thin" is very much like
SOM's
> characterization. He's saying such things are "just subjective". I think
> this is just one of a hundred examples that show Rorty to be the problem
> Pirsig is trying to overcome.
>
>
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