From: David MOREY (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Tue Sep 23 2003 - 20:26:21 BST
Sam/Matt
I think there is a problem with what
people leave at home and go out of
the door and are prepared to become
cogs in a machine without the slightest
moral problems with it.
Regards
David M
----- Original Message -----
From: <abahn@comcast.net>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2003 9:05 PM
Subject: Re: MD Where things end.
> Platt,
>
> You said Matt made this assertion: "that the state shouldn't interfere in
a
> person's "self-creation" and in the next breath says that philosophy
> should stay out of politics. Apparently these kinds of contradictions
> are accepted without a blink of an eye by Rorty fans."
>
> Andy: OK, I am a Rorty fan. So maybe I just don't see it, but where is
the
> contradiction?
> > Matt, Sam
> >
> > > Sam said:
> > > You make it sound as if there was no understanding of 'truth' involved
> > > in the evolution of my beliefs. I hold my beliefs because I think
> > > they're true, aka they have the highest Quality that I have yet found
in
> > > my intellectual explorations. That may change - whether you call it DQ
> > > or the Holy Spirit, if you have a set of beliefs which rule out those
> > > things, and therefore the possibility of change, then you're
eventually
> > > going to be marooned a long way from the current of truth. I see no
> > > philosophical distinction here between my beliefs and anyone else's on
> > > this forum, including yours.
> > >
> > > Matt:
> > > I agree very much with Sam here and particularly when he says later,
> > > "And on many of those things we'd be on the same side - but maybe for
> > > quite distinct reasons!" One of Rorty's main projects has been to
clear
> > > space for people's own ideas of self-perfection. This is at the heart
> > > of the Enlightenment political project, it is what prompted Jefferson
to
> > > enunciate the separation of church and state, it is what prompted
> > > Eisenhower to say that religion is at the heart of America--whatever
> > > religion it happens to be. The heart of secularism isn't that people
> > > should be atheists, it is that people should leave religion for at
home.
> > > What this century's most important political theorist (with the
> > > possible exception of Habermas), John Rawls, does is show that this
> > > separation should be expanded to cover philosophy, too. This means
that
> > > all private projects of self-creation, be they called religious or
> > > philosophical or spiritual or literary or whatever name they are
given,
> > > should be privatized so that people can determine the meaning of life
on
> > > their own without the interference of the state. Rorty argues that
> > > religion and philosophy should stay out of politics because it would
> > > stop the conversation. It doesn't matter how we got to our position
of
> > > "cruelty is the worst thing we can do", be it from a Christian
> > > standpoint or a secular standpoint, from reading the Bible or reading
> > > Orwell. It just doesn't matter. What matters is that we got there
and
> > > that we can then argue how we move from there to action, it is then
that
> > > we can debate good policy.
> >
> > I agree with both Sam and Matt except Matt in one breath says, based on
> > philosophical principle, that the state shouldn't interfere in a
> > person's "self-creation" and in the next breath says that philosophy
> > should stay out of politics. Apparently these kinds of contradictions
> > are accepted without a blink of an eye by Rorty fans.
> >
> > More importantly, however, Matt's claim of a universal moral principle
> > that "cruelty is the worst thing we can do" is hardly shared by all,
> > including such disparate characters as Bin Laden and Shakespeare ("I
> > must be cruel, only to be kind.")
> >
> > Cruelty is obviously not the worse thing we can do when societies are
> > threatened by biological forces. As Pirsig asserts, "The instrument of
> > conversation between society and biology has always been a policeman or
> > a soldier and his gun." (Lila, chp. 24.)
> >
> > Platt
> >
> >
> >
> > MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
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> >
>
>
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