From: David MOREY (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Wed Sep 24 2003 - 19:46:07 BST
Andy: The division between the
social and intellectual level in this analogy would be extremely murky
DM: Well if clinging on=SQ then the social level
will be where there is a big group clinging on together.
I like this stream thing becuase it is a good image of DQ.
Perhaps a mystic is useful even if he swims off never to be seen again,
others may be inspired by the possibility and give letting go a try.
DM
----- Original Message -----
From: <abahn@comcast.net>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 4:25 PM
Subject: Re: MD Illusions--Richard Bach's creatures
> Hi Sam,
>
> Thanks for the reply.
>
> :-)
>
> Sam: "I think that you are equating DQ and intellect in the analogy, ie
that it
> is by letting go andflowing with the current that you become
intellectual - if
> you cling you are following static(social?) patterns. Is that correct?
(It's
> definitely a variation on Pirsig, but that's not necessarily a bad
thing)."
>
> Andy: Well, Yes and No. I am really equating DQ with the stream. I am
> equating intellect with the front-end of society, with the individuals who
are
> clinging furthest downstream. If you cling you do not necessarily have to
be
> following social patterns, but you are using SQ. The division between the
> social and intellectual level in this analogy would be extremely murky.
The SQ
> DQ split is a little more obvious. I think letting go and flowing with
the
> stream has some intellectual components, but it also has some mystical
> components to it. It is the moments of inspiration or enlightenment that
occurs
> in the act of creating. Eventually these moments are brought back to the
rest
> of society. The inspiration of an individual is a gift to all of society.
In
> the beginning, as a small number of individuals begin to grasp onto this
> inspiration the intellectual level is being born. However, eventually, if
this
> gift of inspiration becomes ingrained in a culture, it becomes part of the
> social level. In this way society moves forward through time--like a
river.
>
> Sam: "I like the thought about existing in DQ with someone else. One thing
that
> I have been mulling on recently is the 'loneliness' of existence at the
fourth
> level (ie when you awareness functions and explores there). I relate it to
Jesus
> saying there is no giving and receiving in marriage in heaven. I wonder
how far
> the creation of the ego by the social level (which I see as the 'vehicle'
which
> goes off for purposes of its own on the fourth level) is an isolating
process,
> so that there can never be a genuine sharing or meeting of minds at that
level.
> (This doesn't rule out human contact or relationships of course, just
reminds
> that they need to be sustained 'whole bodily' ie by all the levels at
once).
> Perhaps the most there might be is a shared delight in the DQ - 'Look at
that!'.
> Just some musings."
>
> Andy: I think I agree whole-heartedly. I think inspiration is a solitary
> experience. But if this inspiration cannot be brought back to others it
is a
> wasted experience. This is the folly of mysticism (I think). It neglects
the
> most important part of the intellectual level. That is--that this level
exists
> for the purpose of serving the social level. I think many people who are
caught
> up in spiritual and religious expeience and lifestyles are solely
conserned with
> their own personal salvation. This neglects a responsibility to society
that I
> think all individuals must share. Of course, this is exactly my
interpretation
> of what jesus was teaching.
>
> Sam: "On the economic front, I was wondering how you might relate the
levels to
> various economic phenomena, especially money. I was thinking the other day
that
> money is something else which was created for a particular purpose
(exchange of
> value) but which has gone off on purposes of its own - ie it is no longer
tied
> to a particular good, eg gold or whatever, but is now a store of value in
its
> own right, and the financial whizzkids dream up lots of creative ways to
> manipulate money in order to generate more money."
>
> Andy: This mystery of money is what led me to study economics. I don't
know
> how to relate it to the levels. Money is a social phenomena and it is
meant to
> facilitate trade. The point you are making, I think, is that money has no
value
> in its own right. Society gives it value by trusting others will also
give it
> value. It represents a bundle of goods and services. I suppose
individuals in
> the finance industry are working in the intellectual level when they are
> dreaming up ways of making money work for them and then passing on this
> information to others. I don't think money has a purpose of it's own, it
is
> only that some individuals are very creative in discovering new ways to
use it.
>
> Cheers,
> Andy
> > Hi Andy,
> >
> > Thanks for this exploration of Richard Bach. I was once a great fan of
his -
> > that started to ebb
> > when I failed to do any 'cloud busting'! But Illusions has got some
great
> > insights in it, including
> > the story of the river creatures.
> >
> > However, two sets of comments on what you wrote. The first about the
analogy,
> > the second about
> > economics.
> >
> > I think that you are equating DQ and intellect in the analogy, ie that
it is by
> > letting go and
> > flowing with the current that you become intellectual - if you cling you
are
> > following static
> > (social?) patterns. Is that correct? (It's definitely a variation on
Pirsig, but
> > that's not
> > necessarily a bad thing).
> > Secondly, I like the thought about existing in DQ with someone else. One
thing
> > that I have been
> > mulling on recently is the 'loneliness' of existence at the fourth level
(ie
> > when you awareness
> > functions and explores there). I relate it to Jesus saying there is no
giving
> > and receiving in
> > marriage in heaven. I wonder how far the creation of the ego by the
social
> > level (which I see as
> > the 'vehicle' which goes off for purposes of its own on the fourth
level) is an
> > isolating process,
> > so that there can never be a genuine sharing or meeting of minds at that
level.
> > (This doesn't rule
> > out human contact or relationships of course, just reminds that they
need to be
> > sustained 'whole
> > bodily' ie by all the levels at once). Perhaps the most there might be
is a
> > shared delight in the
> > DQ - 'Look at that!'. Just some musings.
> >
> > On the economic front, I was wondering how you might relate the levels
to
> > various economic
> > phenomena, especially money. I was thinking the other day that money is
> > something else which was
> > created for a particular purpose (exchange of value) but which has gone
off on
> > purposes of its own -
> > ie it is no longer tied to a particular good, eg gold or whatever, but
is now a
> > store of value in
> > its own right, and the financial whizzkids dream up lots of creative
ways to
> > manipulate money in
> > order to generate more money.
> > Again just a thought.
> >
> > Thanks for the stimulating paper.
> >
> > Sam
> >
> >
> >
> > MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
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>
>
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