From: skutvik@online.no
Date: Sat Sep 27 2003 - 08:39:28 BST
Hi Steve
25 Sep. you wrote:
> Bo said:
> > ... your statement that
> > intellectual patterns should be present in the social age is
> > completely at odds with the MOQ. Also that of "...social patterns
> > still present in modern times" is wrong if "modern times" means the
> > intellectual level?
> Steve:
> I don't see how modern times could equal the intellectual level. The
> intellectual level is a type of pattern of value, not an epoch.
One moment you like the "age" or "epoch" term, the next you don't.
There must necessarily have been an era/age/epoch when all value
levels were the top notch and through whose filter existence was
seen. The present time is is the intellectual age in the Western sphere
....in my opinion.
> Steve:
> I'm not sure you're understanding my position nor DMB's. You seem to
> have it backward. What DMB calls social, I would often call
> intellectual since DMB limits intellect to thinking about thinking
> while I define intellect as Pirsig does -- simply thinking. It is DMB
> that has thinking as part of the social level.
When you read this, my "solution" post is hopefully published and you
will see how I see (that Pirsig saw) the social-intellect transition.
> Wim's formulation
> keeps the levels discrete as the value that holds a rationale for
> behavior together is recognized completely differently than the value
> present when a person unconsciously copies the behavior of another.
The "social repetitious" idea may be viable in that light.
> I wonder why you think there is no room for the social level if one
> thinks of social patterns as those latched through unconscious copying
> of behavior. Can you explain what you think is left out?
I have no objection to SOCIAL patterns at the social level, it's when
you and/or Wim start to speak of intellectual patterns stretching back
to God knows when that I say that it leaves no room for the social era.
> Also, what is this "social reality"? I don't see the levels as
> referring to different realities. Is that really what you mean?
As said, social "reality" is the era when social value was top notch. It is
still present - as strong as ever - only not dominating our outlook. Your
not seeing levels as different realities ... hmm. That I think you will
have difficulties with defending, but let me hear your reasoning.
Sincerely
Bo
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