Re: MD The final solution or new frustration.

From: David MOREY (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Sun Sep 28 2003 - 20:38:51 BST

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    Scott

    Your last point is a good one, I suspect
    a lot of Pirsig's style in ZMM is to not
    frighten anyone by using words like intellectual.
    I think the problems with the word
    reason is why Pirsig says so much about rhetoric.
    There is no good term I fear. I like experience
    because you can fill this out with everything you
    want to include.

    Regards
    DM

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Scott R" <jse885@spinn.net>
    To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
    Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 5:47 PM
    Subject: Re: MD The final solution or new frustration.

    > David M,
    >
    > > I also feel that reason is a bad term becuase
    > > you start to look like Hegel. I really think that the terms
    > > freedom and opennes need far higher status. The cosmos
    > > is clearly an impressive achievement, but equally its contradictions
    > > and openness speak against both design and omnipresent reason.
    > > I think it is more of a difficult struggle than using the term reason
    > > implies.
    > > I am sure I want to go ion the same direction as you Scott, but not too
    > > far, if we end up at Hegel we have lost opennes and freedom and
    > creativity.
    > > I also like Quality=experience. Our world is utterly human, our only
    world
    > > is this world of a human quality, a human experience, full of everything
    > > though
    > > it is.
    >
    >
    > Here's Steiner:
    >
    > "...what I have said about the nature of thinking -- that it rests within
    > itself and is determined by nothing -- cannot be simply transferred to
    > concepts. (I note this explicitly here, because this is where I differ
    from
    > Hegel, who posits the concept as first and original.)"
    >
    > Thinking (or reason, which I take to be more or less synonymous) is
    > inherently dynamic. Concepts and ideas are the static result. I don't know
    > if that assuages your misgivings or not, but it does mine. Reason (this is
    > now Coleridge) "operates" through polarity, the "two forces" in
    > contradictory identity. So there is no lack of openness, freedom,
    > creativity, and contradictions in this view. Indeed, Steiner calls it "The
    > Philosophy of Freedom".
    >
    > I don't like "Quality=experience", not because I think it is false, but
    > because the way Pirsig uses it it tends to focus on experience as
    > perception and overlook thinking. Pirsig frequently says "pre-intellectual
    > DQ" but not (as I recall -- someone correct me if I'm wrong) "intellectual
    > DQ".
    >
    > - Scott
    >
    >
    >
    >
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