From: David MOREY (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Wed Oct 01 2003 - 18:35:16 BST
Hi Guys
How about listening to classical music,
I often find that I do not enjoy a difficult
work until I have heard it many times, then
I can 'hear it' and really appreciate its quality.
It seems to me that intelligence is involved here,
that intelligence requires static patterns to grasp
reality/quality in its full or fuller complexity, that
static patterns enable us to grasp quality in a richer
way, and yet back to the dynamic quality of listening
to a familiar music work. It seems that the relationship
between SQ/DQ is more complex than some of you are
suggesting.
Regards
David Morey
----- Original Message -----
From: "Platt Holden" <pholden@sc.rr.com>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: MD The final solution or new frustration.
> Scott,
>
> > > Platt,
> > > Intellect (thinking) is not a response to DQ. Thinking is the
> > > patterning of pure experience (Quality) into static symbolic forms.
> > > What responds to DQ is not intellect but a vague sense of something
> > > better. One's initial reaction to great art (or getting off a hot
> > > stove) isn't intellectual. It's immediate, involuntary, instinctive,
> > > intuitive, visceral, spontaneous. Thinking about experience is
> > > secondary. Thinking about thinking is even further removed from DQ.
>
> Scott:
> > ????. Apparently, the fourth and highest level of SQ is the furthest
> > removed from DQ. Something's backwards.
>
> Platt:
> If you think being a mindless lion is better than being a mindful
> human, then I'd suggest you have something backwards. The creative
> force of DQ makes for higher quality patterns. A pattern with the
> ability to think is better than a pattern that can't. It's better for
> doctor to kill a germ than a germ to kill a doctor. It's better to
> think independently than to simply regurgitate a party line.
>
> Scott:
> > You did not respond to my analysis of the hot stove example.
> > Apparently
> > you think that it is the " immediate, involuntary, instinctive,
> > intuitive, visceral, spontaneous" that is response to DQ. I see these
> > (except perhaps "intuitive") as all static responses. The Dynamic is
> > found when one can overcome these reflexes, when one is supremely
> > mindful -- that is, operating on the intellectual level. What you seem
> > to value sounds very New Age-y to me.
> >
> > As I said to Paul, why don't we all get lobotomies? True, we couldn't
> > create great art, but it seems we would be much closer to DQ, by
> > adopting this outlook.
>
> Platt:
> Maybe you can explain the passage in Chp. 9 of Lila where Pirsig talks
> about DQ in relation to a baby of which the following is a brief
> excerpt:
>
> "From the baby's point of view, something, he knows not what, compels
> attention. This generalized "something,' Whitehead's "dim
> apprehension,' is Dynamic Quality."
>
> Not "supremely mindful" would you say? If you'll review what Pirsig
> says about the nature of DQ in Ch.9 (the song, the heart attack, the
> baby) you'll see that "mindful" has nothing to do with it--until after
> the event.
>
> As for DQ being a "static response," you're right in the sense that we
> know the quality of an experience before thinking about it:
>
> "When the person who sits on the stove first discovers his low-Quality
> situation, the front edge of his experience is Dynamic. He does not
> think, "This stove is hot," and then make a rational decision to get
> off. A "dim perception of he knows not what" gets him off Dynamically.
> Later he generates static patterns of thought to explain the
> situation." (5)
>
> Call it a biological reflex if you wish. I know of nothing in the MOQ
> that suggests our response to Quality (experience) is supernatural.
>
> Finally, I'm I right in assuming you believe in Berkeley's philosophy
> of idealism?
>
> Platt
>
>
>
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