From: Scott R (jse885@spinn.net)
Date: Fri Oct 03 2003 - 23:11:52 BST
Sean,
> Leave us not forget that thinking is a voluntary action whereas digestion
is
> an automatic response. Thinking is not automatic, it is an act of
volition.
Well, yes and no. Try to not think for a half hour and you may wonder how
voluntary it is. One the other hand, it is far from completely involuntary,
and for that reason I consider it a locus of the Dynamic. Indeed, I see the
goal of Zen training to make it as voluntary as possible.
- Scott
> >From: "Scott R" <jse885@spinn.net>
> >Reply-To: moq_discuss@moq.org
> >To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> >Subject: Re: MD Intellectual level - New letter from Pirsig
> >Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2003 10:49:58 -0600
> >
> >Paul,
> >
> >The difference between the weather and the mind is that with mind there
is
> >memory, and hence self-awareness. Your analogy reminds me of the
> >functionalist comparison of thinking, as something that brains do, with
> >digestion, as something that stomachs do. The all-important difference,
of
> >course, is that thinking can think about thinking, but digestion cannot
> >digest digestion.
> >
> >- Scott
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >
> > > Hi Sam
> > >
> > > [Sam:]
> > > In his letter to you, Pirsig writes:
> > > > You have to cut it off somewhere, and it seems to me the
> > > > greatest meaning can be given to the intellectual level if it is
> > > > confined to the skilled manipulation of abstract symbols that have
no
> > > > corresponding particular experience and which behave according to
> > > rules
> > > > of their own.
> > >
> > > Do you have any idea about who or what might be *doing* the
manipulation
> > > (ie, who or what has the
> > > 'skill')? Or is it that the symbols react to Quality on their own,
> > > without an intermediary? Or
> > > something else?
> > >
> > > [Paul:]
> > > I think our language presupposes the necessity for "something" to have
> > > the skill or "something" to react that is in addition to or outside of
> > > the manipulation or the reaction itself and this makes it difficult to
> > > answer without sounding intentionally esoteric.
> > >
> > > Nonetheless, one answer to your question may be given by drawing on a
> > > crude analogy with the weather. When we talk of "the weather", we say
> > > "it is raining", "it is windy" and so on. If we ask what the "it" is
> > > that is raining without reference to rain or wind we find ourselves
> > > thinking of nothing. In a similar way, if we ask "what is it that is
> > > thinking [manipulating symbols]?" it is normal to answer with "the
> > > mind". If we then ask what the mind is without reference to thinking
> > > [manipulating] or thoughts [symbols] I suggest we may equally find
> > > ourselves thinking of nothing. In either case, one is not prevented
from
> > > talking meaningfully about "the weather" or "the mind" but it is
always
> > > with reference to their processes.
> > >
> > > Another answer is provided in a piece of Buddhist literature I
recently
> > > quoted:
> > >
> > > When questioned by Mara "what is a person?", Vajira answered "Mara,
why
> > > do you insist on the word "person"? There is nothing here but a group
of
> > > processes. Just as the word "cart" is used when the parts are
combined,
> > > so the word "person" is commonly used when the five skhandas* are
> > > present."
> > >
> > > * Skhandas means something like "impermanent heaps" - body, feeling,
> > > perception, karma and consciousness
> > >
> > > An MOQ answer might be - it is not that Sam has intellectual patterns;
> > > it is intellectual patterns that have Sam.
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > > Paul
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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> >
> >
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