From: Mati Palm-Leis (mpalm@merr.com)
Date: Sun Oct 12 2003 - 00:43:44 BST
David & MOQ folks
dmb says:
I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at with these questions. But if
we
want to draw a line between the social and intellectual levels, and I
think
we HAVE TO do so if we want a proper definition of the intellect, then I
think its worth pointing out that language and ritual are not
intellectual.
Mati: Agreed
David:
Yes, there is certainly great intelligence at the social level, but
rituals
and language don't involve the same kind of independent symbol
manipulation.
Its not very hard to see the difference because we're not just talking
about
some mysterious pre-historic rites, but a level of ourselves that we
know
every day...
Mati replies: Perhaps of we have a different sense of what symbol
manipulation is. It has been mentioned that social level was discussed
at great length before and I am not looking to reopen that discussion.
Language in my mind is a sophisticated form of communication using
symbols (Letter and words, Language/ one context of symbols). It seems
to me that symbol existed before the S/0 divide was discovered. When it
was discovered it marks the advent of the intellectual level. In my mind
it is the conduit that supports both the Intellectual and Social values.
This is similar to matter supporting the inorganic and biological
values. Is a correct assumption or have misunderstood something?
Pirsig in the recent letter:
Handshaking, ballroom dancing, raising one's right hand to
take an oath, tipping one's hat to the ladies, saying "Gesundheit!"
after a sneeze-there are trillions of social customs that have no
intellectual component.
dmb continues:
Notice how these everyday rituals each involve a physical gesture?
Notice
how each of them is largely a matter of proper behavior rather than self
expression or anything else? We could say the same about the more formal
and
overtly religious or civil rituals of our time too. I point this out
because
there is something about the social level that seems to be closer to the
biological level. We feel it in our bodies. We express it in gestures
and
stances and such. We can't dance with our brains; the intellect just
can't
feel the beat like the hips can, you know?
Mati: Agree, I feel the same way. But I think of the many of those
ritual were sustain by symbols of language and customs. What about the
Mythos? Language like other symbols just evolved within the social realm
until it developed to become sophisticated enough to support the
intellectual level.
Paul Turner said:
...the conscious manipulation of symbols by individuals
doesn't seem to have occurred until around the time of Odyssey. Until
recently I, for one, did not appreciate the massive change in human
behaviour that seems to have occurred around this time.
dmb says:
You're not the only one. There are tons of misconceptions about this
transition period, even for those who are fascinated by the ancient and
pre-historic worlds. But there is no avoiding the conclusion that the
difference between the social and intellectual levels is easier to see
for a
person who knows something about that period. And I think that even if
Pirsig's ideas were completely excluded from the discussion, a person
who
learned lots about the period would conclude that something rather
astonishing happened around that time...
Mati: The astonishing thing it seems to me was that it wanted to
redefine reality beyond he social level. Intuitively those Greeks sensed
it and pushed it until S/O divide was born.
Pirsig in the recent letter:
Just when the evolution of the intellectual level from the social level
took place in history can only be speculated on. I certainly wasn't
there when it happened. ...Maybe the early Greek philosophers. Who
knows? But if one studies the early books of the Bible or if one studies
the sayings of primitive tribes today, the intellectual level is
conspicuously absent. The world is ruled by Gods who follow social and
biological patterns and nothing else.
dmb says:
I was there. It happened on a Tuesday. But seriously, it seems we can
almost
draw a fuzzy line even if we can't pin point the exact moment. Its hard
to
imagine how such a thing could happen in a moment or that anybody at the
time realized what was being let loose in the world. But if the
Egyptians
were not but the early Greek philosophers were and if the early books of
the
Bible were not, and the later ones were... the time frame gets narrowed
down
to something we can get a handle on.
Mati: Excellent point but, what again seems to me is that the before and
after is defined by he acknowledgment of the subjective reality.
Egyptians culture from my limited understanding of that time, was purely
of the social level. My guess there was an itch that the biological &
and inorganic level realities couldn't define. There was that
"something more" and they sensed it. Language and customs tried to
define the subjective reality but it could reason it. The S/O discover
did. Historical fuzziness aside I think we are safe to say the Greeks
were able to do it and did it.
David:
Maybe its worth repeating that the social level is not been consigned to
the
dust heap. We can learn something about it by looking at pre-historic
cultures and such, but that level still defines us to a very large
extent.
Its most of what we are.
Mati: Agreed
I hope that my comments are not too simplified, but I think for the sake
of discussion it is ok to do so. Thanks David for your articulation of
a complicated idea.
Mati
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