From: skutvik@online.no
Date: Fri Oct 31 2003 - 07:45:59 GMT
Hi Platt
27 Oct. you wrote: (to Wim an me)
> Both of you seem to believe that social values are permanent. For
> instance, Bo writes, " ... social value is something terribly archaic
> that can't be changed." I disagree. In Chap. 3 of Lila, Pirsig pointed
> out:
> "Of all the contributions America has made to the history of the
> world, the idea of freedom from a social hierarchy has been the
> greatest. It was fought for in the American Revolution and confirmed
> in the Civil War. To this day it's still the most powerful, compelling
> ideal holding the whole nation together."
I believe we are talking a little past each other, the terms
"society/social" makes this issue very difficult to sort out.So does the
value/values/patterns ...etc.
> What holds nations together are social values,
Yes, but let me point to the part in LILA about the criminal elements -
backed by the "intellectuals" - destroying the neighborhood. This
Pirsig saw as intellect joining forces with biology to fight their common
enemy society, but he did mean that social values were "changed",
they weren't allowed to work because they were suppressed by the
intellect-dominated environment.
> and obviously the
> ideals that are at the root of social values can and do change.
A bit odd this. During the alleged age that social value was top notch,
there were no "ideals" (those are intellect to you?) yet societies grew in
complexity from primitive tribes to great empires.
The upper level's purpose is to control the lower level, but the lesson
of the LILA example is that if intellect abolish societal control (of
biology) it jeopardizes itself. The quote above about "the idea of
freedom from a social hierarchy" being America's legacy to the world
is a slightly different matter.
People fleeing social oppressions in Europe were determined to form
a "free" equalitarian society in America, but its freedom had to be
protected by law & order and military forces ...these are the social
patterns that must underpin even the most intellect-dominated
society.
> For
> nearly a century, the Marxist ideal held Russia together, backed by
> the government-sanctioned slaughter of of millions. Today, the social
> values that hold Russia together are capitalism, a fledgling free
> market and rights to private property.
Marxism was an intellectual scheme from the start, but as the
founding fathers disappeared the social trait - always strong in
Russians - took over. Yet, your calling "capitalism, free market and
private property" social values I balk at. To me social values are
something very old. The fame and/or celebrity following wealth surely,
but not these relatively recent economical ideas.
> Currently many of the social values that hold Iraq together are
> undergoing radical change, over the objection of the social values of
> Islamo-fascism.
Exactly!
> From ancient Greece to the American experiment, history might said to
> be a study of changes in social values. Societies evolve towards
> greater awareness and freedom under the same drive for Quality that
> influenced inorganic and biological forms.
If societies (meaning social value) can evolve beyond its
"jurisdiction" I doubt ...when it did intellect was the result!
In my opinion
Bo
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