From: David MOREY (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Fri Oct 31 2003 - 18:02:04 GMT
Hi
Quite clear to me that intellectual development
will depend on social development and vice-versa.
EG theory of divine right (intellect) used to support
social system of Kingship which is the effective social
system of the period. As society changes so intellect
develops, at a later date the intellectual development becomes
more established and the influence down start to overtake th influence
up. Marx, of course, got himself into lots of theory trouble thinking
social structures determine ideological structures, the reality is that
the relationship of power/determinism changes over time. What is
the later emerging form/structure must start weak and become stronger,
intellect cannot appear and dominate from birth.
regards
David M
----- Original Message -----
From: <skutvik@online.no>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 7:45 AM
Subject: Re: MD What makes an idea dangerous?
> Hi Platt
>
> 27 Oct. you wrote: (to Wim an me)
>
> > Both of you seem to believe that social values are permanent. For
> > instance, Bo writes, " ... social value is something terribly archaic
> > that can't be changed." I disagree. In Chap. 3 of Lila, Pirsig pointed
> > out:
>
> > "Of all the contributions America has made to the history of the
> > world, the idea of freedom from a social hierarchy has been the
> > greatest. It was fought for in the American Revolution and confirmed
> > in the Civil War. To this day it's still the most powerful, compelling
> > ideal holding the whole nation together."
>
> I believe we are talking a little past each other, the terms
> "society/social" makes this issue very difficult to sort out.So does the
> value/values/patterns ...etc.
>
> > What holds nations together are social values,
>
> Yes, but let me point to the part in LILA about the criminal elements -
> backed by the "intellectuals" - destroying the neighborhood. This
> Pirsig saw as intellect joining forces with biology to fight their common
> enemy society, but he did mean that social values were "changed",
> they weren't allowed to work because they were suppressed by the
> intellect-dominated environment.
>
> > and obviously the
> > ideals that are at the root of social values can and do change.
>
> A bit odd this. During the alleged age that social value was top notch,
> there were no "ideals" (those are intellect to you?) yet societies grew in
> complexity from primitive tribes to great empires.
>
> The upper level's purpose is to control the lower level, but the lesson
> of the LILA example is that if intellect abolish societal control (of
> biology) it jeopardizes itself. The quote above about "the idea of
> freedom from a social hierarchy" being America's legacy to the world
> is a slightly different matter.
>
> People fleeing social oppressions in Europe were determined to form
> a "free" equalitarian society in America, but its freedom had to be
> protected by law & order and military forces ...these are the social
> patterns that must underpin even the most intellect-dominated
> society.
>
> > For
> > nearly a century, the Marxist ideal held Russia together, backed by
> > the government-sanctioned slaughter of of millions. Today, the social
> > values that hold Russia together are capitalism, a fledgling free
> > market and rights to private property.
>
> Marxism was an intellectual scheme from the start, but as the
> founding fathers disappeared the social trait - always strong in
> Russians - took over. Yet, your calling "capitalism, free market and
> private property" social values I balk at. To me social values are
> something very old. The fame and/or celebrity following wealth surely,
> but not these relatively recent economical ideas.
>
> > Currently many of the social values that hold Iraq together are
> > undergoing radical change, over the objection of the social values of
> > Islamo-fascism.
>
> Exactly!
>
> > From ancient Greece to the American experiment, history might said to
> > be a study of changes in social values. Societies evolve towards
> > greater awareness and freedom under the same drive for Quality that
> > influenced inorganic and biological forms.
>
> If societies (meaning social value) can evolve beyond its
> "jurisdiction" I doubt ...when it did intellect was the result!
>
> In my opinion
> Bo
>
>
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