From: Nathan Pila (pila@sympatico.ca)
Date: Sat Nov 01 2003 - 01:29:23 GMT
David,
Hmmm. I am still confused a bit. Or maybe a lot. I like certain things and
want more of them. If I get them I feel good. If I don't, I don't feel good.
I am hard wired for this.( I am thinking of things like sex, control over my
environment, sweets, company of others that I have things in common with,
conversation with interesting people, etc.).
Is what you are saying that I have it within my ability to change this? Can
I get to the point of, for example, enjoying suffering or not enjoying the
taste of ice cream or not wanting to have the great feelings that come from
sexual experience?
Don't I choose to value those things that give me pleasure?
I feel a bit stupid because I fear that I'm off on a tangent here, but how
else will I get anywhere with ZMM if I don't ask the questions that come
into my head.
By the way, I live in Toronto and would call you if you give me your phone
number. That would accelerate my progress. I know that it is presumptuous of
me to ask you to lift me but I have a feeling that without some assistance I
will not be able to get the message.
The 'quality' stuff is still baffling to me. Is there another word that I
can use for 'quality' in the ZMM sense?
Nathan
----- Original Message -----
From: "David MOREY" <us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: MD What makes an idea dangerous?
> Well, how you feel will be influenced by what you value,
> you felt like a sun bathe, then rain is no good for you, you are
> wanting your garden to grow then great, it never rains again, then
> we are all going to die of thirst. You talk about rain, that implies you
> care
> about whether it is raining or not. If you don't care you don't invent the
> language,
> hence Eskimos have a lot more names for snow than you and I.
>
> regards
> David M
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nathan Pila" <pila@sympatico.ca>
> To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 12:01 AM
> Subject: Re: MD What makes an idea dangerous?
>
>
> > David,
> >
> > Once again I thank you for your response. I read what you wrote and want
> you
> > to forgive me for not being able to get the meaning of the message. I
> accept
> > that we have a framework that allows us to talk about the weather. We
can
> > say "it is raining" and this statement has meaning. Now my question is,
> what
> > insight can I draw from what you have written? How can I use your 'view'
> on
> > reality to my advantage? For example, if I am feeling badly about
> something,
> > and wish not to feel sad or angry or envious or ...., how can I make use
> of
> > the 'language games'?
> >
> > Or is my question out of the realm of what you are speaking about?
> >
> > By the way, I am now 3/4 of the way through ZMM. I found the long
> discussion
> > on 'quality' confusing. Maybe at the end, it will all come together for
> me.
> >
> > Regards to you,
> >
> > Nathan
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "David MOREY" <us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk>
> > To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 1:35 PM
> > Subject: Re: MD What makes an idea dangerous?
> >
> >
> > > Nathan
> > >
> > > OK, so here we have truth as being that which is implied in
> > > the definition of the words we are using. You and I accept
> > > that the experience of certain patterns will be called 'its raining'.
> > > We have decided to cut reality up in a certain way. Raining or
> > > not raining. The conceptual framework we have dreamed up
> > > is used to invent the idea of a weather system with different states.
> > > You might like to say it is 'raining now'. Having agreed our
definitions
> > > up front we can then look out of the window and decide is it 'raining
> > now'.
> > > So we can use our intersubjective agreement about our invented
> conceptual
> > > frameworks. This enables a world in which weather can occur to appear.
> > > Hence, for us post-modernists it is interpretation all the way down.
> > > Although, as a critical realist I am quite happy to talk about nature
> > > joining
> > > the conversation of our langauge games. And as someone willing to do
> > > metaphysics I would like us to talk about this strange capacity to
play
> > > language games and open a clearing in which Being appears.
> > >
> > > regards
> > > David M
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Nathan Pila" <pila@sympatico.ca>
> > > To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 9:14 PM
> > > Subject: Re: MD What makes an idea dangerous?
> > >
> > >
> > > > David,
> > > >
> > > > A statement is true if it conforms with and is congruent with what
our
> > > > senses tells us.
> > > > If I tell you that it is raining outside, and you look and see
puddles
> > and
> > > > rain drops then you would accept that my claim is true. N'est pas?
> > > >
> > > > Nathan
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "David MOREY" <us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk>
> > > > To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 2:17 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: MD What makes an idea dangerous?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Hi
> > > > >
> > > > > Maybe we can shift this argument about truth to
> > > > > one about epistemology. Shall we discuss some specific
> > > > > things we wish to say are true? What do we mean by them being
true?
> > > > >
> > > > > regards
> > > > > David M
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "David Buchanan" <DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org>
> > > > > To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> > > > > Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 12:33 AM
> > > > > Subject: RE: MD What makes an idea dangerous?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Andy and all truth seekers.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Andy said:
> > > > > > I still don't understand the source of your irritation with Matt
> and
> > > > > Rorty.
> > > > > > I think you believe you have made some very specific objections
> that
> > > > Matt
> > > > > is
> > > > > > avoiding, but I think he has honestly addressed each and every
one
> > of
> > > > > them.
> > > > > > Perhaps, it is becuase your points are do not come accross as
> clear
> > to
> > > > us
> > > > > as
> > > > > > they are to you.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > dmb says:
> > > > > > I'd be happy to try and make my points clear. As I've said,
> > answering
> > > > > > questions and addressing objections is what its all about and
I'm
> > glad
> > > > to
> > > > > do
> > > > > > it. But apparently I'm not worthy to speak of Rorty and so there
> > > aren't
> > > > > many
> > > > > > questions asked about my thoughts, just dismissive insults and
> such.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Andy said:
> > > > > > I still don't know how this helps us recognize truth. Or how to
> > > > identify
> > > > > a
> > > > > > dangerous idea. Or how to reveal the "right" morals to live by.
> > You
> > > > have
> > > > > > said truth and morality are as real as trees and rocks, but you
> > don't
> > > > > offer
> > > > > > us any way to percieve this reality. I don't see how Pirsig has
> > given
> > > > us
> > > > > > another option. Do you see why I am confused? If truth is not
> what
> > > we
> > > > > can
> > > > > > agree upon and if it is not absolute then what is it? How do we
> > know
> > > > it?
> > > > > > Understand, that I am open to the possiblity of another way to
> > > identify
> > > > > > truth, if you can present it. I just have not grasped onto what
> it
> > is
> > > > you
> > > > > > might be saying.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > dmb says;
> > > > > > I don't think I was trying to answer all those big questions. We
> > could
> > > > get
> > > > > > at them. They're good ones. But my point here is much more
narrow
> > than
> > > > > that.
> > > > > > My point is simply that Pirsig and Rorty have different theories
> of
> > > > truth.
> > > > > > (It seems they are hostile to each other in other fundamental
ways
> > > too.)
> > > > > I'm
> > > > > > just saying that Pirsig's theory of truth doesn't seek or lay
> claim
> > to
> > > > the
> > > > > > absolute Truth. Nor does it assert that truth is merely a
property
> > of
> > > > true
> > > > > > statements. The MOQ's assertion that truth is simply a high
> quality
> > > > > > intellectual explanation is far less grandiose than absolute
> Truth,
> > > but
> > > > it
> > > > > > is far more "solid" and real than a property. For Pirsig, our
> truths
> > > > about
> > > > > > reality are more than a collective hunch too. Its the third
choice
> > you
> > > > > asked
> > > > > > for. The MOQ can't construe truth as a propery of statements
> because
> > > > > > intersubjective agreement is still just subjectivity. In ZAMM
he's
> > > > trying
> > > > > to
> > > > > > get us to see technology, like his motorcycle, as ideas forged
in
> > > steel.
> > > > > > He's asserting that the Buddha can be found in the gears of his
> > > machine
> > > > > just
> > > > > > as well as in the petals of a lotus flower. The MOQ makes the
idea
> > > part
> > > > of
> > > > > a
> > > > > > larger system where ideas are a product of creation in and of
> > > > themselves,
> > > > > > not an attribute of some other thing. In this picture, we don't
> > agree
> > > > > about
> > > > > > the truth of ideas, we ARE ideas - among other things. There are
> > > > propably
> > > > > > lots of better ways to get at the differences, but I'd imagine
you
> > see
> > > > > what
> > > > > > I'm getting at by now. Let me know.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
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