From: David MOREY (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Sat Nov 01 2003 - 21:57:12 GMT
Hi
Remember quality=experience=reality.
Sure your taste is going to change. Sure your body
is a whole bunch of being, in a society, that does/does not
always worry about what you think. Also important to remember
that you can really have too much of a good thing, or that you
skip a pleasure now to invest and have more pleasure later, but more
to life than pleasure too, for me I would say freedom and autonomy
is my chief good, I kinda realise that I cannot achieve this alone, or
by excluding it from others, and that as the world stands I can only get so
much, and lots of people want me to have less than I've got, and lots
of people seem to value security and a quiet life more. I would not say
hard wired, I would say you have a history, and your body has a history
that goes back a long way. You are in a situation, and you have a whole set
of possibilities but they are not infinite, and life is all about picking
just one
path and sacrificing all the rest. Dynamic quality is this
choice/creativity/freedom
giving it up is creating static structures that are real and limited. Keep
up the reading,
and get on to Lila, its the bigger trip.
regards
David M
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nathan Pila" <pila@sympatico.ca>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 1:29 AM
Subject: MD confused and trying
> David,
>
> Hmmm. I am still confused a bit. Or maybe a lot. I like certain things and
> want more of them. If I get them I feel good. If I don't, I don't feel
good.
> I am hard wired for this.( I am thinking of things like sex, control over
my
> environment, sweets, company of others that I have things in common with,
> conversation with interesting people, etc.).
> Is what you are saying that I have it within my ability to change this?
Can
> I get to the point of, for example, enjoying suffering or not enjoying the
> taste of ice cream or not wanting to have the great feelings that come
from
> sexual experience?
> Don't I choose to value those things that give me pleasure?
>
> I feel a bit stupid because I fear that I'm off on a tangent here, but how
> else will I get anywhere with ZMM if I don't ask the questions that come
> into my head.
>
> By the way, I live in Toronto and would call you if you give me your phone
> number. That would accelerate my progress. I know that it is presumptuous
of
> me to ask you to lift me but I have a feeling that without some assistance
I
> will not be able to get the message.
>
> The 'quality' stuff is still baffling to me. Is there another word that I
> can use for 'quality' in the ZMM sense?
>
> Nathan
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David MOREY" <us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk>
> To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 1:07 PM
> Subject: Re: MD What makes an idea dangerous?
>
>
> > Well, how you feel will be influenced by what you value,
> > you felt like a sun bathe, then rain is no good for you, you are
> > wanting your garden to grow then great, it never rains again, then
> > we are all going to die of thirst. You talk about rain, that implies you
> > care
> > about whether it is raining or not. If you don't care you don't invent
the
> > language,
> > hence Eskimos have a lot more names for snow than you and I.
> >
> > regards
> > David M
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Nathan Pila" <pila@sympatico.ca>
> > To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> > Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 12:01 AM
> > Subject: Re: MD What makes an idea dangerous?
> >
> >
> > > David,
> > >
> > > Once again I thank you for your response. I read what you wrote and
want
> > you
> > > to forgive me for not being able to get the meaning of the message. I
> > accept
> > > that we have a framework that allows us to talk about the weather. We
> can
> > > say "it is raining" and this statement has meaning. Now my question
is,
> > what
> > > insight can I draw from what you have written? How can I use your
'view'
> > on
> > > reality to my advantage? For example, if I am feeling badly about
> > something,
> > > and wish not to feel sad or angry or envious or ...., how can I make
use
> > of
> > > the 'language games'?
> > >
> > > Or is my question out of the realm of what you are speaking about?
> > >
> > > By the way, I am now 3/4 of the way through ZMM. I found the long
> > discussion
> > > on 'quality' confusing. Maybe at the end, it will all come together
for
> > me.
> > >
> > > Regards to you,
> > >
> > > Nathan
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "David MOREY" <us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk>
> > > To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 1:35 PM
> > > Subject: Re: MD What makes an idea dangerous?
> > >
> > >
> > > > Nathan
> > > >
> > > > OK, so here we have truth as being that which is implied in
> > > > the definition of the words we are using. You and I accept
> > > > that the experience of certain patterns will be called 'its
raining'.
> > > > We have decided to cut reality up in a certain way. Raining or
> > > > not raining. The conceptual framework we have dreamed up
> > > > is used to invent the idea of a weather system with different
states.
> > > > You might like to say it is 'raining now'. Having agreed our
> definitions
> > > > up front we can then look out of the window and decide is it
'raining
> > > now'.
> > > > So we can use our intersubjective agreement about our invented
> > conceptual
> > > > frameworks. This enables a world in which weather can occur to
appear.
> > > > Hence, for us post-modernists it is interpretation all the way down.
> > > > Although, as a critical realist I am quite happy to talk about
nature
> > > > joining
> > > > the conversation of our langauge games. And as someone willing to do
> > > > metaphysics I would like us to talk about this strange capacity to
> play
> > > > language games and open a clearing in which Being appears.
> > > >
> > > > regards
> > > > David M
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Nathan Pila" <pila@sympatico.ca>
> > > > To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 9:14 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: MD What makes an idea dangerous?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > David,
> > > > >
> > > > > A statement is true if it conforms with and is congruent with what
> our
> > > > > senses tells us.
> > > > > If I tell you that it is raining outside, and you look and see
> puddles
> > > and
> > > > > rain drops then you would accept that my claim is true. N'est pas?
> > > > >
> > > > > Nathan
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "David MOREY" <us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk>
> > > > > To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 2:17 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: MD What makes an idea dangerous?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Maybe we can shift this argument about truth to
> > > > > > one about epistemology. Shall we discuss some specific
> > > > > > things we wish to say are true? What do we mean by them being
> true?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > regards
> > > > > > David M
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "David Buchanan" <DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org>
> > > > > > To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
> > > > > > Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 12:33 AM
> > > > > > Subject: RE: MD What makes an idea dangerous?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Andy and all truth seekers.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Andy said:
> > > > > > > I still don't understand the source of your irritation with
Matt
> > and
> > > > > > Rorty.
> > > > > > > I think you believe you have made some very specific
objections
> > that
> > > > > Matt
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > avoiding, but I think he has honestly addressed each and every
> one
> > > of
> > > > > > them.
> > > > > > > Perhaps, it is becuase your points are do not come accross as
> > clear
> > > to
> > > > > us
> > > > > > as
> > > > > > > they are to you.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > dmb says:
> > > > > > > I'd be happy to try and make my points clear. As I've said,
> > > answering
> > > > > > > questions and addressing objections is what its all about and
> I'm
> > > glad
> > > > > to
> > > > > > do
> > > > > > > it. But apparently I'm not worthy to speak of Rorty and so
there
> > > > aren't
> > > > > > many
> > > > > > > questions asked about my thoughts, just dismissive insults and
> > such.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Andy said:
> > > > > > > I still don't know how this helps us recognize truth. Or how
to
> > > > > identify
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > dangerous idea. Or how to reveal the "right" morals to live
by.
> > > You
> > > > > have
> > > > > > > said truth and morality are as real as trees and rocks, but
you
> > > don't
> > > > > > offer
> > > > > > > us any way to percieve this reality. I don't see how Pirsig
has
> > > given
> > > > > us
> > > > > > > another option. Do you see why I am confused? If truth is
not
> > what
> > > > we
> > > > > > can
> > > > > > > agree upon and if it is not absolute then what is it? How do
we
> > > know
> > > > > it?
> > > > > > > Understand, that I am open to the possiblity of another way to
> > > > identify
> > > > > > > truth, if you can present it. I just have not grasped onto
what
> > it
> > > is
> > > > > you
> > > > > > > might be saying.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > dmb says;
> > > > > > > I don't think I was trying to answer all those big questions.
We
> > > could
> > > > > get
> > > > > > > at them. They're good ones. But my point here is much more
> narrow
> > > than
> > > > > > that.
> > > > > > > My point is simply that Pirsig and Rorty have different
theories
> > of
> > > > > truth.
> > > > > > > (It seems they are hostile to each other in other fundamental
> ways
> > > > too.)
> > > > > > I'm
> > > > > > > just saying that Pirsig's theory of truth doesn't seek or lay
> > claim
> > > to
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > absolute Truth. Nor does it assert that truth is merely a
> property
> > > of
> > > > > true
> > > > > > > statements. The MOQ's assertion that truth is simply a high
> > quality
> > > > > > > intellectual explanation is far less grandiose than absolute
> > Truth,
> > > > but
> > > > > it
> > > > > > > is far more "solid" and real than a property. For Pirsig, our
> > truths
> > > > > about
> > > > > > > reality are more than a collective hunch too. Its the third
> choice
> > > you
> > > > > > asked
> > > > > > > for. The MOQ can't construe truth as a propery of statements
> > because
> > > > > > > intersubjective agreement is still just subjectivity. In ZAMM
> he's
> > > > > trying
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > get us to see technology, like his motorcycle, as ideas forged
> in
> > > > steel.
> > > > > > > He's asserting that the Buddha can be found in the gears of
his
> > > > machine
> > > > > > just
> > > > > > > as well as in the petals of a lotus flower. The MOQ makes the
> idea
> > > > part
> > > > > of
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > larger system where ideas are a product of creation in and of
> > > > > themselves,
> > > > > > > not an attribute of some other thing. In this picture, we
don't
> > > agree
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > > the truth of ideas, we ARE ideas - among other things. There
are
> > > > > propably
> > > > > > > lots of better ways to get at the differences, but I'd imagine
> you
> > > see
> > > > > > what
> > > > > > > I'm getting at by now. Let me know.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
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