From: Valuemetaphysics@aol.com
Date: Thu Nov 06 2003 - 16:15:54 GMT
Hi Mark and Platt,
Mark, I enjoyed reading this, however I have just a few nitpicks to make..
Mark 6-11-03: Hello David, How are things with you?
Mark said:
But no literature indicating dominance of intellectual patterns, and that is
why Pirsig indicates the Bible as an example largely devoid of intellectual
'cultural' value - but the Bible, in virtue of being the manipulation of
symbols is, as a matter of MoQ fact, composed of intellectual patterns
(written language). The language is socially directed, but writing, qua
writing is an intellectual activity. You, I, and Pirsig agree.
And I agree, brilliant!
Platt said:
Oh, oh. I'm confused again. Are you saying the Bible is a product of
intellect but has no intellectual standing? Isn't that like saying the
cave paintings are a product of thought but have no value in an
intellectually dominated culture? Something seems wrong if that's the
case. Or does beauty trump the intellectual?
Mark replies:
We are helping each other here, and i appreciate your support. Although
writing narrative is an intellectual activity, the social
(cultural?)
value of the Bible has changed, whereas writing narrative as an intellectual
activity is more or less the same as when the Bible was first produced.
David H comments:
Of course the rules are the same, but I think we have become smarter and
learnt how to 'push' the barriers of those rules.
Mark 6-11-03: Fair enough. Yes, indeed.
Mark continues:
(One may write Tensor short hand equations today, which are highly abstract
and almost exclusively intellectual with virtually no social value, but
writing them is no more complex than writing a, b, c, etc?)
David H comments.
To me, the hand that writes is biological, writing/reading words which
symbolise what is not immediately apparent is intellectual and learning of
the meanings of these words is social.
Mark 6-11-03: The hand is Biological to be sure. :) And intellectual patterns
require social sanctioning to a degree. So, i agree.
Mark also said:
The trick is i feel to envision all value levels evolving simultaneously and
virtually independently? At any one time the balance between the four levels
is shifting and changing - with small currents and large tides. We must take
particular circumstances and explore the evolutionary state of the prevailing
currents and Tides?
Yes I think this is good!
Mark continues:
This may lead to apparent contradictions, but no more contradictory than
the Scientist (Intellectual patterns) meeting his mistress (Organic patterns)
David H : I would think that 'meeting' a mistress is a social activity,
however the title Mistress would be biologically derived.
in the seclusion of an out of town motel (social patterns).
David H : To me, 'Seclusion' implies a negation of social patterns, and in
this case it's motivation is biological, the motel however, as a place that
Bob owns and allows people to stay is social.
Mark 6-11-03: I use the term 'seclusion' to convey an air of 'clandestine'?
It is socially frowned upon for men to cheat on their partners, unless you are
French, in which case it is mandatory. ;-P The term 'mistress' is of dubious
social value - it can sound a little derogatory in some senses, (conventional
monogamist) and boastful in others, (blokes together swapping lurid stories)?
But the drive away from the happy home may be biologically motivated as you
suggest. The exciting thing is that we are examining these everyday questions
with the MoQ, and i like that a great deal.
Throughout the day, Mr. Scientist is changing in value from high
Intellectual and social patterning, (Great physicist, socially status in
the scientific community via reputation for good published work), through
low Social patterning, (cheating on his partner, abandoned marriage vows,
what about the kids? lousy bastard wouldn't trust him as far as you could
throw him), through to high Organic value, (Mistress, foxy undergraduate,
unethical in a tutor, etc, etc.)
David responds:
That seems ok.
Mark says:
As with the Scientist's day, so with millennial shifts and changes in
cultures? Indeed, one may write a narrative of, 'A day in the life of Mr.
X' and use it as an allegory of the last two thousand years if we wished?
That may make for a good story?
David says:
Indeed, and one would already have the last 100 or so years to work from as
Pirsig has already done it in Lila.
Mark finishes:
You brought in Beauty. Well, as you know, i agree with you in that Beauty
is best in all our creative endeavours. Indeed, as any physicist worth his
Salt would remind us, the best ideas are elegant, beautiful, and
aesthetically pleasing. Quality.
David comments:
Agreed, but I think Beauty is more often used in regard to biological
patterns.
Cheers,
David Harding
Mark 6-11-03: Re: Beauty. At the risk of blowing my own trumpet, may i ask
you to take a gander at, 'The edge of chaos'? A definition of Beauty is
suggested there which is derived from the MoQ.
Thanks for some great ideas!
All the best,
Mark
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