From: Nathan Pila (pila@sympatico.ca)
Date: Sat Nov 08 2003 - 22:26:17 GMT
Steve,
First of all I am deeply appreciative of your efforts to give me some
insight into what ZMM is saying and to give me some ideas that challenge the
ideas that are embedded in my mind.
Let me now ask you this.
There is a school of thought that says that consciousness is an emergent
property in the same way wetness is an emergent property. The atoms that
form a molecule of water are not wet nor is the molecule of water wet, but
put enough of these water molecules together and you get wetness. In that
way, consciousness 'comes from' the maelstrom of activity from various parts
of the brain.
Comments?
Nathan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Peterson" <peterson.steve@verizon.net>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: MD ZMM was alright
> Hi Nathan,
>
> Nathan said:
> > What an interesting coincidence. We share some life experience. I taught
> > high school mathematics for 30 years and retired a year ago. I, like
you,
> > taught perms and combs and stats. My background is math and science and
more
> > or less look at the world through the lense of my training.
> >
>
> Steve:
> A lens for viewing the world also acts as a filter. Looking at the world
> through the lens of science is part of what Pirsig is criticizing--at
least
> science as a value-free objective view. Pirsig spends much of ZAMM
> demonstrating that values are real. The lens of science doesn't see
values
> because science paradoxically values being value-free. Pirsig would
rather
> we think of science as studying stable patterns of value.
>
> Nathan said:
> > Well Steve, I liked and thought that ZMM was profound in parts and
clichéd
> > in other parts and incomprehensible to me in still other parts. I agree
with
> > ZMM that LOGIC and REASONING will not necessarily lead anywhere, but for
me
> > it does point out what directions are to be avoided.
>
> Steve:
> Pirsig puts logic and reasoning within the larger context of Quality. In
> other words, to say an argument is logical or reasonable is a way of
> describing its value rather than its objectivity.
>
> Nathan said:
> > There are great mysteries in existence and this sense of wonder gives
> > impulse to read stuff like ZMM but for me, now that I've read the thing,
the
> > mysteries are just as plump. ZMM hasn't yet changed my life; not even at
the
> > edges; .....well, maybe at the edges.
> >
> > I wonder if you know of the incredible work that neuroscientist are
doing
> > with new technology. Now there is something that leaves me breathless.
> >
> > Steve, you say that ZMM points out a disease that has infected society.
I
> > think you are talking about 'materialism'. Right? Well, materialism, the
> > desire to accumulate, is a symptom of something deeper in the human
psyche.
>
> Steve:
> In Lila he describes the enemy as Subject-Object Metaphysics (SOM).
> Materialism is one side of the SOM coin, but here I mean materialism in
the
> philosophical sense rather than the economic one. Materialism is the
view
> that what is really real is the reality that is revealed by objective
> scientific study which is basically matter and energy and cause and effect
> determinism. This 'objective' reality is the primary reality (according
to
> SOM thinking) and mind, consciousness, ideas, values, culture, morality,
> art, preferences, meanings, purposes etc. are "just subjective"--in other
> words--not really real, or only in your head. In Pirsig's philosophy
> objective study gets knocked down a peg. It is considered a valuable way
of
> studying values rather than the great revealer of objective reality.
>
> > We are hierarchical creatures and we are hard wired to want to impress
one
> > another.
>
> I don't think we are likely to find an "impress others" gene. I think
such
> behavior is socially learned. SOM folks want to boil everything down to
> genes and chemicals and some even want to reduce the universe to molecules
> and atoms. They seem to think that to really understand something we just
> need to chop it up into smaller and smaller bits. What nonsense!
>
> Pirsig wants us to think in terms of value rather than matter to
understand
> our experience. His philosophy is based on the postulate that the
> fundamental "stuff" of existence is value or Quality rather than material
or
> matter.
>
> Intellect is the process through which we recognize patterns and
manipulate
> abstract symbols that stand for patterns of experience. The SOMist would
> agree with this definition of intellect, but Pirsig's philosophy differs
> from the SOMists in that the patterns we infer are not based on physical
> materials and causes and effects but instead patterns of valuation. "A
> causes B" becomes "B values precondition A." None of the objective
> scientific understanding of the relationship between A and B is lost, yet
> much is gained, because we now have a place for art, culture, morality,
> values, etc., and we can now discuss and study these patterns as well as
> forces and chemicals and genes because we don't need to view values as
> second-class "only in your head" "just subjective" entities. They are as
> real as rocks and trees which are also now viewed as patterns of value.
>
> It's all Value! Quality. Does that make sense?
>
> > I am pleased to have this dialogue with you.
>
> Likewise. I tried to give you my brief explanation of Pirsig's philosophy
> above. I hope it helps.
>
> Regards,
> Steve
>
>
>
>
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