From: Gert-Jan Peeters (gjpeeters@home.nl)
Date: Sun Nov 09 2003 - 14:34:41 GMT
Nathan said on 9 nov:
Hmm, So, if there is no one in the forest, then the tree makes no sound as
it falls, right?
Gert-Jan says on 9 nov:
Indeed, if consciousness has seized to be, there are no forests with falling
trees. There is not even a 'you' that is seperated from 'the rest'. First
there is quality, then there are subjects and objects. But with
consciousness going on outside the forest that enters the forest after the
tree has fallen, the common thinking will tell you that there must have been
some noise when the tree fell. The reality you have there is an intellectual
pattern of value. Your reasoning provides you with the coherence you need.
Nathan said on 9 nov:
Did you happen to catch the latest NOVA on PBS?
GJ says on 9 nov:
Sorry, other country.
Nathan said on 9 nov:
It was about the book called The Elegant Universe. The book discusses
'string theory'. String theory postulates that all matter and all radiation
(photons, heat etc) is composed of vibrating strings of energy. That, these
strings, are the ultimate reality; the strings vibrate in 11 dimensions.
Since we can't imagine 11 dimensions, is it fair to say that only 4
dimensions exist and the strings are unreal?
GJ says on 9 nov:
I don't know the book, however I have heard about this string-theorie. I
think it is an example how our thinking can stack explanations ad infinitum;
neverending. First we have experience. After that the image is formed. And
as with the noise of the fallen tree we have created an image about the
world to give us some feeling of coherence. (static patterns) Because
experience is reality these conclusions are also reality. Pirsig calls them
intellectual patterns of value. Those patterns can be annything. But to
believe that rain is formed by angels on a cloud that take a divine leek is
of lower quality then the 'real' reason behind the fact that it is raining.
Thunder and lightning can be Zeus roaring through the air throwing bolts of
lightning toward the earth. It can also be electrons traveling from here to
there. Some ideas are better then others. An idea is better when it fits in
the puzzle. And sometimes we take desperate measures to make it all fit to
one another. But that's the thrill of science. And if your idea about the
world only fits your experience until you have eleven dimensions, you should
go with that until something betters comes allong.
Then you also ask: "Since we can't imagine 11 dimensions, is it fair to say
that only 4 dimensions exist and the strings are unreal?" Here my lack of
knowledge comes into play. I don't know enough about this string-theorie to
bring you any further with that. If you find a giant 20 ft. footstep in your
backyard, and you can't imagine what created it, is it fair to say such
footsteps don't exist and therefore the thing that ruined your garden
doesn't exist? If the conclusion is absurd, the steps that took you there
are absurd too. Now it seems the last part of the puzzle gets us into
trouble because we have to do strange things with our imagination to make it
all fit. Creating theories about reality that take us further away from our
direct experience. Even away from our imagination (didn't even know that was
possible) If the last piece of the puzzle doesn't fit perfectly, maybe the
surrounding pieces are wrong. What then? Then we are really exploring.
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