From: Paul Turner (paulj.turner@ntlworld.com)
Date: Fri Nov 14 2003 - 17:30:20 GMT
Hi Matt
Paul said:
I think intersubjective agreement has to be classified as static social
patterns of authority and the static intellectual patterns they approve.
Therefore, as Quality (or morality) *creates* static patterns (including
intersubjective agreement), I don't think they are interchangeable. In
addition, to borrow some words from Pirsig - when an American Indian
goes into isolation and fasts in order to achieve a vision, the vision
he seeks is not one of intersubjective agreement.
Matt:
I think you are making the same mistake Platt makes by thinking that by
'intersubjective agreement' I mean that one has to follow what the group
thinks. This isn't true. 'Intersubjective agreement' represents the
continuum from idiosyncratic beliefs to common sense.
Paul:
I didn't think that it meant mindless flock behaviour as you assume.
However, given your added definition, and my understanding of the
English language, I think it is poor terminology to use
"intersubjective" when it might only refer to one person and "agreement"
when there is potentially none and no requirement for any. Therefore, if
you take away the necessity for "inter" and "agreement" you are left
with "subjective," which seems to be a better term for what pragmatists
are referring to.
Following your clarification, I would say that intersubjective agreement
can simply be described as static intellectual patterns.
Matt:
There are places for both and not all things need to become common
sense. However, I do think all things start as idiosyncratic beliefs
just in the way as the Native American originates the vision.
Paul:
The statement about Native American vision quests was intended to refute
the claim that mystic reality (Dynamic Quality) is equivalent to
intersubjective agreement, not to say something about a discussion of
mystic reality.
Paul said:
Pirsig's redescription of morality in evolutionary terms provides an
explanation for the presence of immorality and good and evil.
Matt:
Sure it does, but I'm not looking for an explanation as to its presence.
I wondering why we should respect low Quality-as-such.
Paul:
Low Quality-as-such for one level of patterns is high Quality-as-such
for another, a feeling that would be verified as real by any adulterer
Cheers
Paul
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