From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Sun Nov 16 2003 - 02:38:37 GMT
Matt, Paul and all:
dmb begins with a reminder:
When it comes to the MOQ, I think Paul is a rock star and I'd only add to
what he's saying.
Paul said:
Therefore, as Quality *creates* static patterns (including
intersubjective agreement), I don't think they are interchangeable. In
addition, to borrow some words from Pirsig - when an American Indian
goes into isolation and fasts in order to achieve a vision, the vision
he seeks is not one of intersubjective agreement.
Matt replied:
I think you are making the same mistake Platt makes by thinking that by
'intersubjective agreement' I mean that one has to follow what the group
thinks. This isn't true. 'Intersubjective agreement' represents the
continuum from idiosyncratic beliefs to common sense. ...
There are places for both and not all things need to become common
sense. However, I do think all things start as idiosyncratic beliefs
just in the way as the Native American originates the vision.
dmb says:
I don't share Platt's view of intersubjectivity as "groupthink" or whatever.
I think Matt was quite right to point out that forced conformity brought
about by the coercive tactics of political tyrannts is another thing
entirely. And I'd also agree that there are relatively small and obscure
intersubjective spaces, those more or less idiosyncratic beleifs, and that
these count as agreement too. But I think Matt has missed Paul's point in
two important ways, the first one being very simple. The truth discovered in
a vision quest is just not related to any of this. Its a whole different
beast. No agreement is required and its meaning to the quester is, in some
sense, beyond dispute. It hardly has anything to do with sanity, common
sense, intersubjective agreement or anything like that. And I'd add that to
say that its "personal" isn't exactly untrue, but seems to undercut its
importance. Paul also get at the second mistake....
Paul explained:
The statement about Native American vision quests was intended to refute
the claim that mystic reality (Dynamic Quality) is equivalent to
intersubjective agreement, not to say something about a discussion of
mystic reality.
dmb says:
Just as I argued earlier today, Matt has confused sq and DQ again. Not only
did Pirsig have a vision quest of his own, as depicted in the opening
chapters of Lila, but he also concludes the book with its implications.
Nearly everything in between is an elaborate explanation of insights gained
in that teepee. This is why I keep insisting that Matt's reading of the MOQ
tears the heart and soul out of the thing. Its nearly impossible to ignore,
and yet Matt seems quite happy to do so. Thus my frustration. If I had a
couple hits of LSD, I'd send it to him - or slip it into his beer. Further,
its is this experience that makes Pirsig so much closer to William Blake's
or the Buddha's, than to anything like Rorty's view. I'm not saying this
very well, but its just so obvious to me that mysticism and neo-pragmatism
are lightyears away from each other. Pirsig is, among other things, trying
to bridge the gap between East and West, science and religion, objects and
values. Rorty is only pushing common sense. Yawn!
Paul said:
Pirsig's redescription of morality in evolutionary terms provides an
explanation for the presence of immorality and good and evil. ...Low
Quality-as-such for one level of patterns is high Quality-as-such
for another, a feeling that would be verified as real by any adulterer
Matt replied:
Sure it does, but I'm not looking for an explanation as to its presence.
I wondering why we should respect low Quality-as-such.
dmb says:
Like Paul says, sex with a wide variety of partners is very high quality as
far as the organism is concerned, and it only becomes low by comparison to
social values such as marriage vows. Or to put it another way, its all good,
but that doesn't keep us from seeing that some things are better than
others. They say Einstein was a lousy father and husband, but one has to
wonder what we'd have missed if he devoted himself to family instead of
physics, you know?
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Sun Nov 16 2003 - 02:41:23 GMT