From: skutvik@online.no
Date: Fri Dec 19 2003 - 17:48:34 GMT
Steve, Paul and All.
18 Dec. Steve wrote:
> Yes. Pirsig's pursuit of the ghost of reason was fruitful. He returned
> with a rationality that could deal with values.
Right, Phaedrus' of ZMM's opponent was REASON and he gave it
a good thrashing (Pirsig tells Chris) by showing that it is a "ghost"
i.e: in our minds only. At this stage P. reasoned from the
subjective/objective premises where "in our mind" or "subjective" is
the lowliest designation next to unreal.
Phaedrus arrived at a new way of thinking that had values as its
starting point, this was even at odds with the subject/object
reasoning P. himself had started from and lead him to coin the
term SOM. From this it follows that SOM=REASON, and that P.
did not modify it but LEFT IT BEHIND for a new metaphysical deal.
Now, enter LILA and the MOQ and as "intellect" in dictionaries is
defined as the capacity to reason in contrast to emotions and
instinct it is pretty obvious that MOQ's intellectual level is the
subject/object distinction. This interpretation pressed itself on me
from very early in this discussion and has grown on me since.
Where have I gone wrong?
You ended your message thus:
> In other words, rather than create a whole new level, you could have
> instead reasoned as Pirsig did that subjects and objects are patterns
> of value that fit perfectly in the fourth level
Does Pirsig say that subjects and objects belong to the intellectual
level? He says that objects are the patterns of the inorg.+organic
levels and subjects that of the socio.+intell. levels. Its this person
that says that intellect is the VALUE of the S/O distinction. ;-)
> as characterized by
> manipulations of abstract symbols that stand for patterns of
> experience.
Symbols versus patterns of experience is SOM in a moqish garb,
subjective symbols versus objective experience. Had it said "the
value of a symbol/experience distinction" it would have been
perfect.
> Paul said:
> > > I think this series of quotes
> > > show that Pirsig conceived of the MOQ as a "root expansion" of
> > > rationality and, as such, is also part of the intellectual level.
> These quotes make it clear to me. Thanks for taking the time, Paul.
Paul's job of amassing ZMM quotes is great, but this first one:
> "Phædrus spent his entire life pursuing a ghost. That was true. The
> ghost he pursued was the ghost that underlies all of technology, all
> of modern science, all of Western thought. It was the ghost of
> rationality itself."
...is Pirsig (as the narrator in ZMM) telling about his past as
"Phaedrus". First that he was a superintellecual following the ghost
of reason's reasoning to the bitter end ...which meant the Quality
insight and the revelation that reason is the subject/object
metaphysics. After that he started to pursue it in the persecution
sense as I said above.
How Paul sees this as a refutation the "Quality beyond intellect"
notion is beyond me.
Sincerely
Bo
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