From: David MOREY (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Tue Dec 23 2003 - 22:49:22 GMT
Hi Steve
Of course, as Freud examined, the sexual
fix can be come attached to inanimate objects
i.e. fetishes. I have a very nice looking table right
next to me now, lovely legs.
regards
David M
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Peterson" <peterson.steve@verizon.net>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2003 8:29 PM
Subject: Re: MD The MOQ Perspective on Homosexuality
> Hi Wim, DMB, all,
>
> > Steve wrote 16 Dec 2003 20:09:46 -0500:
> > 'I was surprised that you would so whole-heartedly agree with DMBs claim
> > that homosexuality is hardwired through DNA ... I find it hard to
believe
> > that there is a "pussy-loving" gene or a "dick-fancying" gene.
> > ...
> > I can somewhat understand why DMB would see sexuality as biologically
> > latched since he does not use the same definitions of the levels as we,
but
> > do you really see human sexuality in all its complexity as a purely
> > biological pattern?'
> >
>
> Wim:
> > No, not everything that goes under the name of 'sexuality', nor
everything
> > that goes under the name of 'homosexuality' can be explained with
biological
> > patterns of value. Just as at least part of 'sexuality' IS explainable
at
> > the biological level, so is -I think- at least part of 'homosexuality'.
>
> Steve:
> I am glad you agree that human sexuality is tied up in both social and
> biological patterns of value.
>
> The politically correct position on homosexuality in the US is that sexual
> orientation is biologically determined. It seems that this biological
basis
> is a deduction from the premise that one's sexual orientation does not
seem
> to be a choice rather than being a conclusion based on a scientific
> discovery. I'd be interested to hear about research though.
>
> Sure there are some people, especially at liberal arts colleges I've
heard,
> who experiment with their sexuality with the idea of discovering their
"true
> nature" lying underneath all of their social conditioning (since SOMers
tend
> to think that their "true nature" is biologically-based and what's really
> real, and their social patterns are merely a repression of this biological
> nature). Only for some, homosexual behavior or heterosexual behavior is a
> conscious decision (sexual behavior has an intellectual component as
well),
> but very few people consider their sexual orientation a choice.
>
> >It
> > is obviously not the result of one gene, but of the complex interplay of
> > genes among themselves AND with circumstances in which people (or
animals
> > for that matter) find themselves. This interplay permits (statistically)
a
> > range of outcomes and at the outer fringes of this range (as visualized
in a
> > Bell curve) homosexuality is a normal outcome.
> > Genes contributing to that outcome may be genes encoding for a stronger
> > sex-drive than usual and a circumstance enabling it may be more exposure
to
> > people of the same sex than to people of the other sex. Other
combinations
> > of genes and circumstances may have a comparable outcome.
>
> I agree that the biological latch aspect of sexual preference is real and
> probably not a single gene but rather a "complex interplay of genes."
What
> do you imagine are the purely biological triggers of sexual urges that
would
> suggest preferences for maleness or femaleness? You mentioned exposure to
> more or less people of the same sex, but how, from a strictly DNA-encoded
> biological point of view, would we even recognize the imbalance? I
> previously mentioned pheromones which I don't think are important for
modern
> humans, but I could be wrong. It's hard to imagine that we have
hard-wired
> sexual preferences for certain shapes of people. Even if we do, there is
so
> much variability in shapes and sizes of people that regardless of the
> desired shape, there are both males and females that would fit the bill.
>
> My opinion is that though I have trouble thinking how it would work, I
think
> that somehow there is a biological latch for a tendency to favor one sex
or
> the other, but I don't think that there exists a biologically human animal
> who would not display homosexual behavior had this human existed as part
of
> some different set of social patterns. In other words, I don't think that
> anyone is completely biologically determined to be either homosexual or
> heterosexual.
>
> I'm sure, for example, that many who may have claimed to be "All Man"
(like
> DMB although he never specifically used those words) have willingly
engaged
> in homosexual behavior after being sentenced to prison.
>
> I've never desired any physical contact with a male beyond a handshake,
pat
> on the back, scruffing of my hair when I was a kid, or a friendly hug,
> either, but come on, DMB, if you were stranded on a desert island,
wouldn't
> you prefer the companionship of a Brad Pitt over some really, really,
really
> ugly fat old hag? I mean if you were forced to pick one of them to have
sex
> with, are your so sure you'd choose the hag? Brad Pitt, Johnny Depp,
Matt
> Damon, and, I dunno, maybe all of those young guys that are supposed to be
> so hot, look a lot more feminine than a lot of women, right?
>
> As I've said before, though I put a lot of weight on social patterns in
> explaining human sexuality (in my understanding of social patterns, they
are
> latched through unconscious copying of human behavior, and they are the
only
> way I can explain DMBs fetish for French maid costumes ;-)) doing so does
> *not* make sexual orientation a conscious choice. Value choices occur on
> all levels, but *conscious* decisions characterize the intellectual level
> only.
>
> Thanks,
> Steve
>
>
>
>
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