Re: MD Measuring values

From: David MOREY (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Mon Jan 05 2004 - 22:11:46 GMT

  • Next message: MATTHEW PAUL KUNDERT: "Re: MD Measuring values"

    Hi Anthony

    Realy enjoyed this attachment. I agree with many of its points but think
    it is too strongly anti-Rorty overall. The whole thing on Rorty's side is
    really
    about making room for the humanities in a science dominated culture.

    It states:
    "Providing a good argument that we do not and cannot accurately represent
    the world as it is itself does not automatically entail, as Rorty assumes,
    that we do not interface with one world that responds evidentially to our
    webs of belief, such that we learn that some belief networks are better than
    others. This poor inference is another species of the same
    general post-foundational mistake that we have seen in another guise. That
    we can never achieve either certainty or a secure resting point at any node
    within a web of belief does not mean that some webs do not hang together
    better than others. "

    I am increasingly being drawn to the idea that science is a conversation
    with nature. But as Rorty strongly points
    out it is a conversation in which the scientists construct the language.
    This fact results in all the assertions of
    post-modernism. Clearly as nature does not speak the language of the
    scientists we have to interpret the 'gestures'
    that nature makes in response to our questions. And we find that the answers
    we get depend on the questions we ask
    and the interpretations we make of nature's 'gestures' of response. We most
    interestingly find that the answers put
    together for different questions are incompatible and we sometimes resolve
    this by changing our language.
    This is a very fragile relationship in terms of gaining any useful knowledge
    about what is occuring in nature. Clearly
    a great deal of science is merely description and the capacity to repeat
    things -in fact this is rather technology.
    Actual gains in knowledge are much rarer as are revisions in the language of
    science that we are developing. Where Kuhn
    says that different languages/approaches to nature by us mean that we are
    living in different life-worlds he is 100% corrrect
    not at all vague. This is a notion to be found in Nietzsche,Wittgenstein and
    Heidegger. If you live with someone you are in
    love with you are living in a very different world if you fall out of love.
    Language both embellishes and creates the world,
    or rather new worlds, the world from an MOQ perspective is very different
    from the world from an SOM perspective.
    Language is something new in the world and adds to the world and reveals and
    uncovers new worlds, how new are these worlds? well they clearly exist as
    possible worlds, new language/perspectives make potential worlds into actual
    worlds.
    So I am with Rorty all the way up to a certain point but then I agree with
    your posting that we can make make good choices
    about which language games seem to be working well and those in which nature
    seems to give the most answers that hang
    together and make sense, but such a fragile exercise of questioning. You've
    got to find the right questions and you've got to make the right sense of
    the answers. (My position is very-critical realist, and the
    realist-conversation with nature stuff makes a lot more sense of why
    sciences does make some progress, unlike Rorty's position. This is the
    position taken by a number
    of scientists e.g. Polkinghorne.) Hence Nietzsche's truth is like seducing a
    woman.

    regards
    David Morey

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: <ant.mcwatt@ntlworld.com>
    To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
    Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 4:19 AM
    Subject: MD Measuring values

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