From: Steve Peterson (peterson.steve@verizon.net)
Date: Sat Jan 17 2004 - 15:59:29 GMT
Hi Bo,
Steve said:
>> The true/false distinction does not equate with objective/subjective
>> by any stretch. It is objectively false that I was born 1000 years
>> ago. It is subjectively true that my favorite color is green. Truth
>> applies to both objective and subjective experience.
Bo said:
> We agree and disagree. The lie/truth distinction is as old as mankind and
> can't be directly compared to the subjective/objective one.
Steve:
I've already said that I don't accept your "social era." It won't work to
point to our ideas about when and what life was like before intellectual
patterns to support our definitions of intellect if we don't agree on the
when and what. And we don't. (I went into my position on the subject on my
Jan 11 post addressed to you.)
We are unlikely to agree because of the way you are trying to match types of
value (where I would use patterns of value) with types of people and types
of historical eras. I wouldn't define an era as intellectual at the
emergence of the first intellectual pattern any more than I would call a
child an intellectual after having his first abstract thought. An
intellectual person is not merely one who participates in intellectual
patterns. An intellectual person has a degree of awareness of his own
thought processes (thinking about thinking, philosophy) and an aesthetic
appreciation of ideas for their own sake and not merely for their utility.
An intellectual society or era is one that is dominated by this type of
person. An intellectual pattern on the other hand refers to the process of
thinking itself.
Thinking about whether knowledge is subjective or objective may be a first
step toward being an intellectual type of person, but for me that sort of
thinking is not the first nor the only intellectual pattern.
>Armed with
> intellect's S/O "measuring rod" (or scale) we now look down at the past and
> say that ancient people "believed" that ...f.ex the Gods lived on the Olympus,
> but this "belief/objective knowledge" attitude was unknown to them; the Gods
> were reality itself to them - beyond questioning. But a person claiming to be
> 1000 years old would be deemed a liar.
Steve:
If indeed such truth/lie distinctions were made at whatever time in history,
by my understanding of intellectual patterns, that is only to say that
intellectual patterns were in existence at that time. I wouldn't call such
a culture intellectual, but I would say that humans participated in
intellectual patterns at that time.
>> I hope we can come to agreement on identifying and evaluating
>> intellectual patterns on a true/false scale of value with
>> subjective/objective knowledge distinctions as a subset of all
>> intellectual truth distinctions.
> Again these mysterious "intellectual patterns" that supposedly can be
> evaluated against a "true/false" grid (pattern)! See, you deem them
> intellectual in beforehand! What if an intellectual pattern fails the
> intellectual test? Where is it to be placed?
Mysterious? If an intellectual pattern fails the true/false test, it is
considered to be a low quality intellectual pattern. If it passes, it is a
high quality pattern. There are better and worse explanations of
experience and hence, higher and lower quality intellectual patterns. We
are back to Paul's critique. You didn't think of this answer yourself
because you want to say intellect is *one value* which does not allow for
judging patterns within a level.
The other problem I have with your "types of value" rather than "types of
patterns of value" understanding of the levels is that there really is *one
value* in the MOQ and that is Quality. We recognize different types of
patterns of this one Value. We can later categorize types of people and
historical eras based on an understanding of the types of patterns.
Regards,
Steve
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