From: David Buchanan (DBuchanan@ClassicalRadio.org)
Date: Mon Jan 19 2004 - 01:06:58 GMT
JoVo, Platt and all:
"That's what this whole century's been about, this struggle between
intellectual and social patterns. That's the theme song of the 20th century.
Is society going to dominate intellect or is intellect going to dominate
society? And if society wins, what's going to be left of intellect? And if
intellect wins, what's going to be left of society? That was the thing that
this evolutionary morality brought out clearer than anything else." CH 13
Platt said:
>Since the war for American independence preceded the French revolution by
>13 years (1776 vs. 1789) it's false to claim that American values were
>borrowed from the French. Rather, the greatest influence on American
>values were the writings of the Englishman John Locke. Furthermore,...
dmb says:
What kind of logic is that? French influence on American values can't
rightly be measured by the order of the two revolutions. Such reasoning
confuses ideas with actions. Beside that, its widely known that the French
thinkers figured quite large in the Enlightenment and their influence on the
revolutionary war was crucial as well. Not to mention the fact that until
independence was declared, the states were European colonies and American
framers WERE Europens. But I'll give you John Locke. Jefferson was big on
him.
JoVo replied:
The intellectual values that basically influenced the declaration of
independence are mostly grounded in the European movement, that was
later called 'enlightenment'. It was not only Locke, but many important
thinkers of all over Europe who shaped most of the values,...
dmb says:
Right. America's contribution to the Enlightenment was not about the
production of great new ideas. But its hard to overestimate the power and
influence of the new world's noble savage. The idea of a natural man, free
in nature to make a fresh start was a very attractive notion to the European
thinkers. "Man is born free and yet everywhere in chains" and all that.
JoVo said:
Americans and Europeans seem at least to differ on the question what
socialism is. What I furthermore notice as one of the big differences
between Europe and America is their status of informedness concerning
what is going on in countries outside their native country. ...
dmb says:
Yep. Even Canadians seem to be more politically aware and globally minded
than are Americans. This kind of provincialism goes along with an American
tradition of isolationism as old as the nation itself. Here are some quotes
that get at another difference, but I think they also get at what Americans
and Europeans have in common...
"The hurricane of social forces released by the overthrow of society by
intellect were most strongly felt in Europe, particularly Germany, where the
effects of WW1 were the most devaststing. ...Nowhere were the intellectuals
more intense in their determination to overthrow the old order. Nowhere did
the old order become more intent on finding ways to destroy the exesses of
the new intellectualism." CH 22
FDR's New Deal "became the center of a lesser storm between social and
intellectual forces. The New Deal was many things, but at the center of it
all was the belief that intellectual planning by the government was
necessary for society to regain its health." CH 22
dmb adds:
Perhaps the strongest effect was felt in Europe simply because there was so
much less tradition to overthrow in the new world. Maybe this explains why
the US only flirted with fascism in the 30's and its revolution was less
violent than was the French revolution, especially in its aftermath. In any
case, the larger point here is that Europe and the USA are both engaged in
the same battle. The conflict of levels belongs to the West as a whole and
so we're all in this one together.
Thanks.
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