From: Steve Peterson (peterson.steve@verizon.net)
Date: Wed Jan 21 2004 - 23:56:53 GMT
Hi Bo, all,
> 18 Jan. DMB cited Pirsig:
>
>> "That's what this whole century's been about, this struggle between
>> intellectual and social patterns. That's the theme song of the 20th
>> century. Is society going to dominate intellect or is intellect going
>> to dominate society? And if society wins, what's going to be left of
>> intellect? And if intellect wins, what's going to be left of society?
>> That was the thing that this evolutionary morality brought out clearer
>> than anything else." CH 13
Bo responded to DMB:
> I won't go into the conclusions you draw from this - they are rock
> solid - but only comment on the "...if society wins, what's going to
> be left of intellect?" If intellect's value is "manipulation of
> symbols" does that mean that this will be prohibited and police
> will come to your door to check that you don't "manipulate
> symbols"?
Note that it would be at least as absurd to insert your definition of
intellect and say "If intellect's value is [the S/O divide], does that mean
that this will be prohibited and police will come to your door to check that
you don't [categorize experience as subjective or objective]?" See, that's
no good either.
You haven't pointed out a weakness in "manipulations of symbols" for
defining intellectual patterns. You've only pointed out a problem with your
one value "value of X" definitions of the levels as opposed to the types of
patterns understanding that I have been recommending to you.
Note that "the value of truth" however does not fair so badly in the same
substitution: "If intellect's value is [truth], does that mean that this
will be prohibited and police will come to your door to check that you don't
[say something socially unacceptable but true]?" Yes, in fact that's exactly
what it means.
I still can't see how you get mileage out of equating intellect with the S/O
divide in recognizing intellectual patterns...
You added:
> What Pirsig means is that intellect's (individual rights) domination
Are we to read the domination of "the S/O divide"?
> would increase until the community is a mess. This I believe
> proved true in New York, but when things reached a certain stage
> of decline, "intellect" came to its senses and a tough police chief
> was put in office who struck down on the street "freedoms".
The S/O divide came to its senses ?
Thanks,
Steve
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