From: David MOREY (us@divadeus.freeserve.co.uk)
Date: Tue Jan 27 2004 - 18:53:43 GMT
Steve:
To infer patterns of any kind, one must rise to the intellectual level since
inferences are intellectual constructs.
DM:Disagree, there are all kinds of patterns going on in nature,
interacting with each other in inorganic and non-human ways,
nothing intellectual here in human sense, plenty of expectations
and propensities exist though. Purpose/process/intelligence everywhere,
but I suggest the intellectual term is kept for human abstract-symbollic
reasoning.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Peterson" <peterson.steve@verizon.net>
To: <moq_discuss@moq.org>
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2004 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: MD SOLAQI as gift of understanding
> Hi Platt, (Paul),
>
> >> Platt said:
> >>> A question still remains unanswered, however. What level "perceives"
that
> >>> the intellectual level contains "many sets" of intellectual patterns
of
> >>> varying quality? An eye cannot see itself.
> >
> > Steve said previously:
> >> It is not a "level" that perceives. Experience or awareness cannot
itself
> >> be a type of static pattern of experience. If Quality creates the
static
> >> patterns that represent our perceptions, it makes sense to me that
Quality
> >> is synonymous with awareness. Say hello to now!
>
> Platt said:
> > In another post you wrote ". . . the dolphin could not perceive any
value
> > in the pattern of spoken symbols . . ." and attributed its learning
> > ability to the biological (instinct) level and perhaps the social
> > (copying) level. So, in the dolphin's case it would seem its awareness
is
> > a function of its level...
>
> Steve says:
> Or you could say that it's level is a function of its awareness which is a
> way of saying that Quality creates static patterns.
>
> Platt said:
> >yet you say its awareness "cannot itself be a
> > type of static pattern of experience."
> >
> > It seems to me that awareness (Quality) at all levels is closely
> > associated with the level in which the awareness occurs.
>
> Steve:
> Let me first explain how I understand awareness and quality. Starting
with
> my own experience or awareness understood as Quality, I infer other value
> relationships in everything I experience. These value relationships are
the
> MOQ's static patterns. Thinking of these patterns of experience as
> manifestations of Quality suggests that everything I experience is itself
> also awareness.
>
> I distinguish directly experienced value (i.e. Quality) and inferred value
> (i.e. static patterns of quality and dynamic quality) where inference is
> itself a type of direct experience (i.e. participation in intellectual
value
> patterns). To actually be Quality is to value or to be aware. Pirsig says
> something to suggest this sort of internal/external view of Quality in
ZAMM
> where he relates Quality and care, though I may be 'subtly slipping back
> into subject-object thinking.' Let me know if you think I am.
>
> That said, I agree that "awareness (Quality) at all levels is closely
> associated with the level in which the awareness occurs" because inferred
> types of patterns can be equated with types of awareness.
>
>
> >A fish cannot see
> > the ocean it lives in. So, to escape from a one level of awareness to be
> > able to look at, examine and judge that level (as we are able to examine
> > and judge a dolphin's awareness) one must, it seems to me, rise to a
> > higher level.
>
> To infer patterns of any kind, one must rise to the intellectual level
since
> inferences are intellectual constructs. I don't think there is a need to
> invoke a higher level to explain how intellectual level entities are aware
> of intellectual patterns. Intellect is defined as the skilled
manipulations
> of abstract symbols that stand for patterns of experience--any pattern of
> experience. Intellect's symbols can stand for other intellectual patterns
> as well as they can stand for other types of patterns of experience.
>
> Thinking about thinking is still thinking. However, I agree that having
> philosophical sophistication is to be more aware, but I would call it a
> higher stage (state, level) within the intellectual level of awareness.
>
> > What would you think of calling a level that could look down and
evaluate
> > the patterns of the intellectual level a level of mystic awareness?
>
> I think evaluation of intellectual patterns happens on the intellectual
> level as explained above. I also think a higher level above the
> intellectual could never be defined because definition is an intellectual
> activity. A lower level (intellect) can't contain a hypothesized higher
one
> (mystical).
>
> Thanks,
> Steve
>
>
>
>
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