From: Valuemetaphysics@aol.com
Date: Sat Jan 31 2004 - 20:32:43 GMT
Hi Steve,
Thanks for reading TEOC.
I shall try to help you see were it is coming from.
Questions:
How is ZAMM's Quality as pre-intellectual awareness related to Lila's
Dynamic Quality leaving static patterns in its wake?
Mark: 31-01-04: Harmony and beauty. A severe coherence between Intellectual
patterns.
Are they the same? Is Pirsig using the term "intellectual" in the same
sense as he does when he discusses intellectual patterns?
Mark: 31-01-04: At the sweet spot of nothingness, that point where tension
between patterns is very severe - the cutting edge of reality - is the point
from which new patterns emerge falling away from coherence, becoming static.
Pre-intellectual is harmonic coherence - intellectual is the static
conception. You already all this Steve. I know you do. But you don't just quite see
what TEOC is saying yet?
Perhaps "unpatterned awareness" would make a good substitute for
"pre-intellectual awareness," otherwise it would seem that all patterns are
intellectual by equating dynamic/static with pre-intellectual/intellectual.
What do you think?
Mark: 31-01-04: Agree. But! Severe coherence is a 'third state' between chaos
and order - the sweet spot. Think about this 'third state' allot more and you
may begin to see that it may be described in two ways: 1. As a motivation
from DQ. 2. As a coalescence - coherence - move towards DQ. This will require
some thinking and imagination on your part Steve, and you may find the
illustrations i made for TEOC helpful? If not, ignore them.
Recently I said, "To infer patterns of any kind, one must rise to the
intellectual level since inferences are intellectual constructs." Platt
agreed, DM disagreed. I think the disagreement concerned an implication
that all patterns are intellectual. My use of "inference" implies symbolic
representation of patterns so I stand by my original statement.
I've been working with the definition of "pattern" as "perceptual structure"
where structure could refer to inorganic, biological, social, or
intellectual structure.
Mark: 31-01-04: I understand the frustration in making one's own vocabulary
and then not quite being able to use it with other people! That's real
philosophy for you, and i admire you for giving it a try. At the risk of blowing my
own trumpet, i kind of feel the 'third state' sweet spot SQ-SQ tension stuff has
textual support from Lila, ZMM and SOVD.
Does anyone have a better definition of "pattern"? One problem I see with
"perceptual structure" as an MOQ definition is that it implies an S/O
relationship of a perceiver and that which is perceived. Is pattern an
inherently S/O term?
Mark: 31-01-04: As long as patterns are understood to exist in an
evolutionary relationship with DQ, we can then think of that relationship in new ways
which avoid S/O totally and completely (he says emphasising the point)! It is
clearly stated in Lila that patterns and DQ cannot exist without each other. So,
how do they relate? Answer: At the sweet spot.
Please never hesitate to push for more responses. I only wish to help Steve.
All the best,
Mark
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