From: Valuemetaphysics@aol.com
Date: Tue Feb 10 2004 - 00:00:02 GMT
Part 1.
Mark and All.
On 7 Feb. you wrote:
> Mark 7-02-04: Robert Pirsig is a Sophist. He tells us this when
he
> meets the Chairman. etc.
Bo:
Yes, it is clear that Phaedrus of ZMM's sympathy was with the
Sophists and also that they may be regarded as pragmatics, but
they did not speak about "truth as contingent upon value". not
even about "Aretê being the measure of all things", no,
Protagoras said that MAN is the measure of all things.
Mark 9-02-04: Higher excellence measures lower excellence. Aretê is not a
secondary quality of man as substance, it is fleetingly - evident in action. The
sweet spot. Excellence is Dynamic while truth is static.
Bo:
Plato's insight was of TRUTH above MAN and he hated the
Sophists because they said that truth was something that could
be manipulated by rhetorics. I am not peddling the SOLQAI here,
but why did ZMM emphasize this Plato vs Sophists conflict if not
representing something terribly important? And in light of LILA it
becomes the birth of Intellect with the Sophists as Society's last
stand? If the Sophists had been the first intellectuals then the
struggle would have between them (the Sophists) and some Myth
aspect.
Mark 9-02-04: The phrase, 'And in light of LILA it becomes the birth of
Intellect...' Is your own.
Men are Dynamic measures. Truth is a static conception. Static Myths express
Dynamic excellence in action: biological prowess, social standing,
intellectual wit.
Bo:
I know that Aretê is Quality, and I accept Pirsig's thesis, but find
your imposing MOQ on the ancient time unsound. It's a
superimposition and we better understand that.
Mark 7-02-04: Aretê has been around for a long time. It is observed in action
- in the moment - fleeting and skilful, excellent in its beauty. One cannot
capture it, but one can be renowned for using it. The use is Dynamic, the
renown static.
Bo:
Maybe Pirsig should have dropped writing LILA and the MOQ
and let everybody have their woolly take of the ZMM, but like
ZMM reaches back and rearranges the previous view of what
took place in Antique Greece, LILA somehow rearranges what is
written in ZMM. It's not very useful to say that the Sophists taught
Quality, after the MOQ the question is what STATIC value they
taught.
Mark 7-02-04: This is were you want your birth of the intellect thesis to
insist that the sophists taught social value. But back to ZMM and Lila: ZMM
discusses ART. SQ-SQ tension is ART. That is what the sophists knew - Aretê is
seen; beautiful, immediate, sublime. The renown be being of an Aretêic disposition
is static. Sophists did not teach static value - they displayed Dynamic
Aretê, and then earned a static reputation.
> > Bo:
> > Dialectics represents SOM and above Pirsig says that it comes
> > from Rhetorics which is from the ancient Mythos, but in LILA and the MOQ
> > the mythological past IS the social level ("The Mythos is the social
> > structure ..." (LILA p 386)
> Mark 7-02-04: God bless you, No. The Socratic elenchus, as revealed in
> the early Platonic dialogues, and which is the forerunner of Plato's
> dialectic, is a method by which it may be shown that now one can
> define Quality. Well, that is hardly damn surprising is it?
What are you "no"-ing? Pirsig in LILA? Yes, Socrates ('elenchus' I
did not find) was the forerunner ...etc. and dialectics was their
tool to arrive at TRUTH, which in turn ranged over the dreaded
man-made opinion that the Sophists were excellent in
manipulating. Neither spoke about Aretê other than claiming to
represent the highest Aretê.
Mark 7-02-04: The sophists did - their excellence is in the moment - they are
teachers displaying a Dynamic art. Observers of excellence will be moved
indeed, but you choose to say, 'Manipulated' and in doing so, commit a foul deed.
Plato et al. tried to insist that the sophists' 'of the moment' excellence is
less than a static description of excellence - truth over good.
Mark
MOQ.ORG - http://www.moq.org
Mail Archives:
Aug '98 - Oct '02 - http://alt.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/
Nov '02 Onward - http://www.venus.co.uk/hypermail/moq_discuss/summary.html
MD Queries - horse@darkstar.uk.net
To unsubscribe from moq_discuss follow the instructions at:
http://www.moq.org/md/subscribe.html
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Tue Feb 10 2004 - 00:01:50 GMT